DC at "good" private school, but not overly impressed. Public option?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Even if Sidwell students do well with EDM, I hope it occurs to someone that they would probably do BETTER, yes better, with a superior curriculum.

Actually, the Sidwell math faculty has been tracking their standardized test scores before and after program adoption (Investigations not EDM, but "objectionable" for the same reasons) and are happy with the results. In other words, similar story to GDS.

EDM is far from idiot-proof. In the hands of teachers who don't know and love math (or who hate the program), it can be a disaster. But with good teachers and strong students, it can work well, especially with supplementation.

You want a different math curriculum, by all means, choose another school. But recognize that the claims being made about results here (EDM = school that can't compete in math vs. NON-EDM = state math champs) are BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:recognize that the claims being made about results here (EDM = school that can't compete in math vs. NON-EDM = state math champs) are BS.

Utter bullshit being passed off as fact on DCUM?!? I am shocked ... shocked.

[Anonymous]

Well, it is a little over the top when you start claiming to win state championships when, in fact, you haven't. Usually the BS lives at the level of opinion or impression or other unquantifiable or unverifiable assertion. So points for audacity on this one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you do switch to MCPS from private be ready for your child to be way behind in math. My son's teacher was previously a MCPS teacher and said that her kids were at least 2 years ahead of the private school kids in math, i.e. the MCPS kids were doing 4th grade math in 2nd grade.

It's half true. My DS went in the other direction, from MCPS to private, and was about a year-and-a-half ahead. But many parents complain that the MCPS curriculum moves kids too fast through topics which they never really master. In private, the pace has been slower, but he's more solid on what he's learned.

[Anonymous]

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?search_id=1969706889&t=272133

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?t=272133&search_id=1969706889

Go to Art of Problem Solving Website and search under Forum the topic: top USAMA schools. you will find both high schools and middle schools listed over the years. I've tried to cut and paste the sources above

[Anonymous]

Do any of the local privates participate in this program?

[Anonymous]

Our experience was the same as 17:07 -- when our son moved from MCPS to an independent at middle school, he had been in th most accellerated math group at his elementary school and was "ahead" of the curriculum at the new school. He was indignant about this initially, but his math teacher urged him to be patient and assured him that there would be challenges coming up. Within months he reported that the class had indeed become more interesting because "they really want you to think here". With our youngest child still in MCPS, we are much more wary of her being pushed ahead in math at the expense of having a solid foundation. Many parents with kids in MCPS love to note that their children are so accellerated, but for many kids, moving through the curriculum at this pace allows time for a very superficial understanding of the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our experience was the same as 17:07 -- when our son moved from MCPS to an independent at middle school, he had been in th most accellerated math group at his elementary school and was "ahead" of the curriculum at the new school. He was indignant about this initially, but his math teacher urged him to be patient and assured him that there would be challenges coming up. Within months he reported that the class had indeed become more interesting because "they really want you to think here". With our youngest child still in MCPS, we are much more wary of her being pushed ahead in math at the expense of having a solid foundation. Many parents with kids in MCPS love to note that their children are so accellerated, but for many kids, moving through the curriculum at this pace allows time for a very superficial understanding of the material.

What independent school did you go to?

[Anonymous]

Local privates participate however in aggregate their numbers are lower. Interestingly, Phillips Exeter Academy is always up there with TJ and Blair! It helps when your Chair in Mathematics is also on the Board of the important math competitions and the USA Olympiad Math team.

[Anonymous]

I spent a little time (not much) looking at these websites. I'll try to summarize what I saw, so others can avoid the trouble. Maybe these stats can help make this discussion more useful. If anyone sees other useful stats, I'd like to see them.

AMC 8 seems to be the test for younger grades. AMC 10 is geared toward 9-10th grade, and AMC 12 is aimed at 11th-12th grade. Here is the AMC 8 summary report for 2007: http://www.unl.edu/amc/d-publication/d1-pubarchive/2007-8pub/Summary,2007AMC8.pdf , which links from this general AMC 8 page: http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e4-amc08/archive8.shtml . Specific schools are scored/ranked by adding the scores of each school's top 3 students, while scores from all other students are ignored for this contest.

On the Honor Roll (pages 24-25), it looks like Takoma Park Middle School scored tops in MD with 74 points, and Longfellow MS was tops in VA with 75 points. (Go Red Line East!) Several other schools in DC, MD, and VA made the Merit Roll (pages 29-31), including the following private schools: Maret (60), StA (58), NCS (54), Holton (52), Landon (51), Woods Academy (50), and lots of public schools. For more details, please follow the links.

A few thoughts:

(1) This scoring approach makes it hard to compare schools accurately. What it's really comparing is how math-smart the three best students at each school are. Because schools with small student bodies will inevitably have a tough time competing, because they have fewer contestants available to count in the high-three. This disadvantage seems like it will harm small schools the most, be they public or private. I don't know how big/small any of these private school MS programs are, nor do I know how big some of these public schools are, so I can judge how much that might skew results.

(2) Since it's just measuring how math-smart the top three students are, it seems subject to lots of variability from year to year. For example, if a particular school in East Tuckahoe, Montana can get a couple of real math whiz kids, it can dominate the competition for as long as those two kids remain in the school system, even if the rest of the students are terrible at math.

(3) By this measure, the best schools in the world and the smartest students all live in Taiwan. Should we all move there?

(4) Looking at the state-by-state summaries provides some useful context. For example, the average score of the high-scorer from each school (so the average of the #1 student at each school?) was surprisingly low: only 16 in DC, 18 in MD, and 17 in VA. This means that all three of the top-3 scorers for each of the Honor/Merit Roll schools probably did lots better than the top student at many other schools. Huge congratulations to all of them. The TPMS program's top-3 score of 74 most likely means that three students scored in the 24-25 range on the test, which is incredibly better than the MD statewide average score of only 10.

(5) Only 9 schools in DC sent results (25 schools in MD, and 49 in VA). The low numbers of schools reporting is disappointing. On the plus side, if you total up the number of DC/MD/VA schools on the Honor/Merit Rolls, it looks like a huge percentage of the schools that applied did well. I'm not sure if that means the rest of the schools are similarly good in each state, or if only the top schools even bother testing (which would suggest the others are not nearly as good).

I'm not sure that all this settles any disagreement over the best way of teaching math, or the best schools for educating students in math. Perhaps the most positive spin is that really smart math students can thrive in a wide variety of learning styles and in many different types of schools.

[Anonymous]

If you review the variability over 10 years you will also find that TPMS (Takoma Park) is consistently at the top in MD year in and year out. The top 3 performers in each year becomes immaterial. This performance reflects the quality of entering students (magnet program) year in and year out and the educational system (math, science and computer science curriculum, after school math clubs etc). I have no disclosures or conflicts of interest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you review the variability over 10 years you will also find that TPMS (Takoma Park) is consistently at the top in MD year in and year out. The top 3 performers in each year becomes immaterial. This performance reflects the quality of entering students (magnet program) year in and year out and the educational system (math, science and computer science curriculum, after school math clubs etc). I have no disclosures or conflicts of interest.

Can you at least disclose how you know all that? The AMC website does not have 10 years worth of data, so you must have some inside info to support that claim. I've got no doubt that TPMS does well year-in and year-out, and I suspect you're right that it results from drawing in the top math students in MontCo, and giving them good teaching and tons of math extracurriculars. I suspect something similar might be driving the amazing success of the Taiwanese programs.

[Anonymous]

I cannot put my hands on the reference at this moment but through my children's relationships with Art of Problem Solving and other related forums I have come across this data in more than one place. Suffice to say, my recollection is unequivocal.

Your explanation is on mark. TPMS draws on the top MCPS talent. Their math, science and computer science curriculum is intense and requires participation in all 3 middle school years. I doubt this is the case in D.C. private schools. I am also aware the Math Club teacher/facilitator has been the same individual during this time period thus bringing consistency of purpose much like the Phillips Exeter Academy Mathematics department in New Hampshire...also consistently at the top of the heap! Also, at the even higher levels, Princeton, Harvard, MIT, Cal Tech and Stanford (to name a few) that also excel in Math competitions at this level. The secret of creating lasting outstanding institutions of higher learning (at any level) I believe is to develop excellent faculties in mathematics and science. These faculties in turn draw the best minds (teachers and students) that spawn untold collateral benefits for the whole school or educational enterprise. Just my own opinion, of course and I am comfortable with using this to help my children get the sound educational foundation at the primary and secondary school levels before any type of specialization is seriously entertained.

[Anonymous]

Linking the last two mini-discussions: For what it's worth, the TPMS magnet takes a lot of those kids who were accelerated two years ahead (including DC). Linking back to the acceleration issue, whether or not 2-years ahead is appropriate for your kid depends on your kid (duh, you probably knew that). If he/she is ready for it, then it's great that MoCo can provide it.

The vibe I've felt is that some families may think that if their kid isn't accelerated 2 (or even 1) years ahead, then they are on the slow track and won't get into the appropriate high school magnet and/or ultimately the college of their choice. I can certainly understand this sentiment, but it's likely that some kids who aren't ready for acceleration do it anyway, because of parental anxiety, and with MoCo's full blessing.

Another point is that the TPMS math track generally puts them in pre-Algebra (Investigations in Math), which is no more than what many other kids in the rest of MoCo are doing. In TPMS they just do it more deeply, with more angles (no pun intended). Because apparently there's something to be said for a really strong foundation.... (Yes, there are also a few Einsteins who are doing Algebra, but TPMS really, really limits this.)

[Anonymous]

pp, Einstein was not really that good at Math.