Why is "money management" always brought up and used against the poor?

[Anonymous]

If you pull your SNAP card out of your MK purse which also holds your iPhone 7, I judge you. I can't help it.

[Anonymous]

Foster families and sometimes families that have adopted special needs children from the foster system can be awarded benefits for the kids that are paid out on SNAP cards. Be careful not to judge those people based on their purse/phone, you don't know what led to them being given the benefits.

[Anonymous]

I would agree that a lot of people across income levels are terrible at managing money and keeping a robust savings account. My husband and I keep an emergency fund at all times of over 10,000.

I'm not poor but my husband's family is rather poor and one thing I've noticed is that when you don't have savings you often live in this web of mutuality with friends and relatives where you know you can go and borrow money from from a relative. It's been very awkward because my husband doesn't really want to lend out money to his family anymore but he still does it on occasion because he feels obligated to them.

[Anonymous]

I don't know anyone who judges poor people for not having savings. That is kind of the definition of poor. And this board shows there is tremendous judgment of rich people who don't have savings, regardless of their debts, number of kids, years at a high income level, etc.
I'm of the mindset that as long as you are self supporting, spend your money on whatever you want. Sticking cash in a savings account is not more "moral" than buying cigarettes. Where I, and I think many people, get irritated, is when people who are being given government assistance buy luxuries that the middle class may have to forgo rather than saving money so they can go off public assistance. If you are paying $7 a month for subsidized housing, IMO you have a moral obligation to be ultra-frugal until you can afford to support yourself. So yeah, no satellite TV. This moral obligation is not just because you are living off of taxpayers (many of whom may forgo cable/satellite to be able to pay for housing) but also because public housing is scarce, and if you live in it, you should be trying to use it for its intended purpose, which it to help people get back on their feet, and get out so that another family in a crisis situation can take your place.
But a working poor person who has no savings, experiences a crisis, and has to get government assistance while they get back on their feet? No judgement from me for not having savings in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is it that society always looks at working poor people as lazy or bad when they don't have savings. I actually expect someone who lives paycheck to paycheck to not have a fat savings account. If you have $5 at the end of the month after paying all the bills, you probably deserve a treat with that $5 instead of putting it in savings, my question is why don't we judge rich people who suck at managing money as harshly? I have a relative who was rich and every penny he got he spent on vacations, cars and houses and now he has nothing and he's living paycheck to paycheck. He and his wife are Adkin for donations so that they can keep their luxury car and house. On the flipside, I have a relative who is a single mom who has been working her butt off to take care of her kid and I have no problem giving her a donation because she actually needs it. You can't save money when your income just covers everything that you have to pay for. But I honestly don't understand we feel so bad for these rich people who were making millions of dollars a year and didn't have the forethought to save a dime of it.

+ 100 I agree, OP. It's easy to save when you have disposable income, and yet a lot of people who make high salaries don't save enough. But when your salary barely covers the basics (food, housing), it's very difficult, if not impossible, to save.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know anyone who judges poor people for not having savings. That is kind of the definition of poor. And this board shows there is tremendous judgment of rich people who don't have savings, regardless of their debts, number of kids, years at a high income level, etc.
I'm of the mindset that as long as you are self supporting, spend your money on whatever you want. Sticking cash in a savings account is not more "moral" than buying cigarettes. Where I, and I think many people, get irritated, is when people who are being given government assistance buy luxuries that the middle class may have to forgo rather than saving money so they can go off public assistance. If you are paying $7 a month for subsidized housing, IMO you have a moral obligation to be ultra-frugal until you can afford to support yourself. So yeah, no satellite TV. This moral obligation is not just because you are living off of taxpayers (many of whom may forgo cable/satellite to be able to pay for housing) but also because public housing is scarce, and if you live in it, you should be trying to use it for its intended purpose, which it to help people get back on their feet, and get out so that another family in a crisis situation can take your place.
But a working poor person who has no savings, experiences a crisis, and has to get government assistance while they get back on their feet? No judgement from me for not having savings in the first place.

The problem is that, while that sounds good, a lot of people don't see a path out of that life. They're only qualified for minimum wage jobs, and they don't see that changing, even if they save that 4 dollars instead of buying beer.

I also think that people underestimate how much EVERYONE "lives off taxpayers." I mean, if you take deductions for your kids, then you are, in essence, getting tax money for having kids. Does that mean you are in debt to people of the same income level who don't have kids and don't get that tax break?

If we want people to follow certain rules while on government assistance, then set rules to follow. But don't turn it into some sort of moral issue or issue of judgment because there are plenty of not-poor people who exploit the system for the own gain and take WAY MORE of the taxpayers' money while doing so. Frankly, spending so much energy and time judging poor people for buying beer or soda distracts people from the people who are really stealing LOTS of taxpayer money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I would agree that a lot of people across income levels are terrible at managing money and keeping a robust savings account. My husband and I keep an emergency fund at all times of over 10,000.

I'm not poor but my husband's family is rather poor and one thing I've noticed is that when you don't have savings you often live in this web of mutuality with friends and relatives where you know you can go and borrow money from from a relative. It's been very awkward because my husband doesn't really want to lend out money to his family anymore but he still does it on occasion because he feels obligated to them.

I grew up blue collar, and this is exactly why you don't let relatives know what your financial situation is. If they know you have money saved, they'll think nothing of asking to borrow it. It's also why you set firm boundaries. It's very difficult for even industrious people to get out of poverty, and part of that is because as soon as you get slightly ahead, other people can easily pull you down. It's not even that those other people are bad people, and often you love and care about them, but without even realize they are doing it, they can sink you. Some people say it's a web of mutual help, but in a way, it's a web that kind of keeps them all from moving ahead.

[Anonymous]

I have no sympathy for people with high HHI who spend it all and then caught in a recession and tank. I have enormous respect for people with low HHI who live paycheck to paycheck and then get hit with a big unexpected expense. It is very gratifying to help these individuals out but I have found that it must be done in a way that doesn't embarrass them.

[Anonymous]

I remember when the shutdown was going on and while driving past the payday loans places, they had big ol signs that said if you are a govt employee they couldn't help you. That stuck out to me because we have employees from the low end to the high end on the pay scale yet it surprised me that enough employees apparently used the services that they had to erect signs like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dh and I have lived really really poor, and we have lived middle class (now).

One thing we noticed when we were poor is that there are opportunities to be wiser with money when you have more to spend.

For example:
In a given month, I might run out of paper towels, dish soap, and diapers. I stop by Walmart but I only have $25 to spend. -A big box of Luvs diapers costs 19.79+tax.
-I see there's a two pack of paper towels for 2.50, and if my budget were larger, I could spend $12.50 and be set for 6 months... but I don't have that 12.50.
-same with dish soap, I buy the smallest/cheapest bottle and it's 1.19.

At checkout it comes out to 25.24 including tax. Whew! So glad it was basically just $25.

Because I didn't have an extra 10-15 in the budget, im *back in the same spot next month.* next month I still need paper towels, diapers. I don't need soap but I need laundry detergent and a $5-10 gift for my child's best friend. So I have to go over $25 budget and cut into my grocery bill.

This, and
-paying car insurance in a lump every 6 months. The poor can't justify that, so they pay the overall higher amount, monthly.
-being cool with bad timing on refunds/exchanges (just by example, I changed car insurance companies. But my old company payment was about to go through. They couldn't stop it, and refunded me. But the refund took 3 weeks. I was out 700 for 3 weeks. Now, in the middle class I can handle that. A poor person might go negative or have to pay on high interest credit for their other expenses).
-getting a great deal on great quality tires because 1) you have a Costco membership, and 2) you could buy all 4 new tires and get their promotion. They throw in the high mileage warranty and free tire rotation. A poor person = struggles to buy just the one or two tires needed, but they do it anyway)
-I've seen it all, but all I can think of are car examples at the moment!


Every month is like that.

Again, when you're poor, you notice that if you just had $20 more here and there, you'd be able to make better decisions with money--buying in bulk at a better unit price. Or choosing detergent that actually works (saving your clothes from stains and so you don't have to replace your work-shirt).

On and on.

This is so true. I lived on very little money when I was in college, and this made a big impression on me. Now, I'm all about stocking up and getting the "deal," but I remember when it was like not having the money to do it.

If you are so poor you show up at the store with $25, then you forgo the paper towels and use towels/rags. It's not the end of the world.

If you have a washer/dryer you cloth diaper with prefolds/flour sack towels.

This is exactly the sort of thing poor people have trouble with - it's like saying they could be getting a better deal if they bundled media services, but because they are poor, they pay a premium. Um no. You reduce until you can start saving.

Op here, this is the kind of response I'm talking about. Because someone is poor, they shouldn't have the luxury of... paper towels and disposable diapers? I've been on both ends of the money spectrum and honestly, do you really think working poor people have all the time in the world to wash (and often pay out the nose at a laundromat) cloth diaprs and rags?

Obviously if you are truly struggling, the best cable/internet package may not be a priority, but how much stuff should they cut until they're just living in a hollowed out shell of a home? You could easily say that various other things around the house are "luxury" items. Btw most people (even poor people) need internet access at home.

[Anonymous]

I grew up poor and what I don't think gets emphasized enough in conversations like this is the extent to which "money management" is not something that children who grow up in poverty are taught at home. The idea of "saving money" every month was totally foreign to me until I was in my 20s because that was the first point in my life that I ever experienced having anything left over to save at the end of the month.

Budgeting when you are living in poverty looks a lot different than when you're not living in poverty. A lot of things that people on this board consider essential budget categories (e.g., retirement funds, college funds, emergency funds) are simply not things that people living close to the edge are able to prioritize. When you are poor and your car needs $200 in repairs, sometimes what that means is that you don't have a working car for a few weeks, which then also means you have to figure out somehow to get from point A to point B.

I also think that most upper middle class people have a fairly skewed sense of value. You may see a person taking a SNAP card out of a MK purse at the grocery store, or a person with a fresh manicure and an iPhone, and what you maybe are not seeing is the church donation bin that the purse came out of, the cousin/sister/auntie who works as a manicurist, and the reality that the iPhone provides a home phone line as well as an internet connection, both of which are basically essential in 2017. Similarly, a poor person looking at an UMC person will see things like your nice car and your nice clothes and your house that you own and not see things like student loan debt or high mortgage payments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ex: when you have all the latest gadgets yet complain you can't afford to buy school supplies then yeah I have a problem with it.

It's situations like this that piss me off about poor people and their money management. They spend money on what they want.

Exactly. I know poor people who eat out frequently, have the latest iphone, etc, but skip out on rent and car payments. Then blame "the man" for their misfortunes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dh and I have lived really really poor, and we have lived middle class (now).

One thing we noticed when we were poor is that there are opportunities to be wiser with money when you have more to spend.

For example:
In a given month, I might run out of paper towels, dish soap, and diapers. I stop by Walmart but I only have $25 to spend. -A big box of Luvs diapers costs 19.79+tax.
-I see there's a two pack of paper towels for 2.50, and if my budget were larger, I could spend $12.50 and be set for 6 months... but I don't have that 12.50.
-same with dish soap, I buy the smallest/cheapest bottle and it's 1.19.

At checkout it comes out to 25.24 including tax. Whew! So glad it was basically just $25.

Because I didn't have an extra 10-15 in the budget, im *back in the same spot next month.* next month I still need paper towels, diapers. I don't need soap but I need laundry detergent and a $5-10 gift for my child's best friend. So I have to go over $25 budget and cut into my grocery bill.

This, and
-paying car insurance in a lump every 6 months. The poor can't justify that, so they pay the overall higher amount, monthly.
-being cool with bad timing on refunds/exchanges (just by example, I changed car insurance companies. But my old company payment was about to go through. They couldn't stop it, and refunded me. But the refund took 3 weeks. I was out 700 for 3 weeks. Now, in the middle class I can handle that. A poor person might go negative or have to pay on high interest credit for their other expenses).
-getting a great deal on great quality tires because 1) you have a Costco membership, and 2) you could buy all 4 new tires and get their promotion. They throw in the high mileage warranty and free tire rotation. A poor person = struggles to buy just the one or two tires needed, but they do it anyway)
-I've seen it all, but all I can think of are car examples at the moment!


Every month is like that.

Again, when you're poor, you notice that if you just had $20 more here and there, you'd be able to make better decisions with money--buying in bulk at a better unit price. Or choosing detergent that actually works (saving your clothes from stains and so you don't have to replace your work-shirt).

On and on.

This is so true. I lived on very little money when I was in college, and this made a big impression on me. Now, I'm all about stocking up and getting the "deal," but I remember when it was like not having the money to do it.

If you are so poor you show up at the store with $25, then you forgo the paper towels and use towels/rags. It's not the end of the world.

If you have a washer/dryer you cloth diaper with prefolds/flour sack towels.

This is exactly the sort of thing poor people have trouble with - it's like saying they could be getting a better deal if they bundled media services, but because they are poor, they pay a premium. Um no. You reduce until you can start saving.

Op here, this is the kind of response I'm talking about. Because someone is poor, they shouldn't have the luxury of... paper towels and disposable diapers? I've been on both ends of the money spectrum and honestly, do you really think working poor people have all the time in the world to wash (and often pay out the nose at a laundromat) cloth diaprs and rags?

Obviously if you are truly struggling, the best cable/internet package may not be a priority, but how much stuff should they cut until they're just living in a hollowed out shell of a home? You could easily say that various other things around the house are "luxury" items. Btw most people (even poor people) need internet access at home.

I posted at 13:23 and for what it's worth, the first time I had a washing machine and a dryer in my home was when I was 25 years old. When I was a child, we mostly lived in rental apartments that either didn't have laundry facilities on site or had laundry rooms that cost $1-3/load and often had broken machines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you pull your SNAP card out of your MK purse which also holds your iPhone 7, I judge you. I can't help it.

MK purses can come from Goodwill for very little money. The phone though? I have no idea how the poor do it. I'm on a 5 right now and our HHI is far from poor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up poor and what I don't think gets emphasized enough in conversations like this is the extent to which "money management" is not something that children who grow up in poverty are taught at home. The idea of "saving money" every month was totally foreign to me until I was in my 20s because that was the first point in my life that I ever experienced having anything left over to save at the end of the month.

Budgeting when you are living in poverty looks a lot different than when you're not living in poverty. A lot of things that people on this board consider essential budget categories (e.g., retirement funds, college funds, emergency funds) are simply not things that people living close to the edge are able to prioritize. When you are poor and your car needs $200 in repairs, sometimes what that means is that you don't have a working car for a few weeks, which then also means you have to figure out somehow to get from point A to point B.

I also think that most upper middle class people have a fairly skewed sense of value. You may see a person taking a SNAP card out of a MK purse at the grocery store, or a person with a fresh manicure and an iPhone, and what you maybe are not seeing is the church donation bin that the purse came out of, the cousin/sister/auntie who works as a manicurist, and the reality that the iPhone provides a home phone line as well as an internet connection, both of which are basically essential in 2017. Similarly, a poor person looking at an UMC person will see things like your nice car and your nice clothes and your house that you own and not see things like student loan debt or high mortgage payments.

But does it really have to be an iphone?