When will Hardy Middle School be as attractive as Deal Middle School?

[Anonymous]

I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Uh, lots of kids at Deal get cut after tryouts for sports cause there are not enough spots for interested students. For high school I understand that but in middle school most students should be accommodated If they have the interest. Just too many kids. And if my athletic Hardy kid wants to play a sport that is not offered at Hardy he will try out for the deal team because that is permissible. And I would add that school sports are not the gold standard anymore. It's all about leagues and travel teams now. And finally, the mayor and chancellor made a big deal about how they were investing in all middle schools this upcoming school year to increase sport offerings. Anyway, not sure sports is the best argument why Deal is great and Hardy is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have never heard anyone describe some innovative program that attracted them to Deal. Deal is a success because they have high-scoring kids. Hardy needs more high-scoring kids. Yes, probably more neighborhood kids. High-performing kids score well, and all of the sudden it is a better school.

Your kids must be relatively young. My kids are in high school and I can certainly recall a time when neighborhood families eschewed Deal. Two factors allowed Deal to turn the corner: its renovation and its IB middle years accreditation which mandated full year science and social studies as well as foreign language classes. Hard to believe but even as recently as just a few years ago, DCPS didn't automatically provide those classes to its middle schoolers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/middle-schools-present-vexing-problem-for-dc-leaders-as-parents-choose-other-options/2014/02/17/29b95e24-93ef-11e3-83b9-1f024193bb84_story.html?utm_term=.c646e1fea321

I can remember circa 2008 when the Deal principal came to my non-Deal-feeder elementary school and addressed a PTA meeting. The message: "consider Deal." The renovation had just been completed and she was under pressure to get enrollment over 800.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have never heard anyone describe some innovative program that attracted them to Deal. Deal is a success because they have high-scoring kids. Hardy needs more high-scoring kids. Yes, probably more neighborhood kids. High-performing kids score well, and all of the sudden it is a better school.

Your kids must be relatively young. My kids are in high school and I can certainly recall a time when neighborhood families eschewed Deal. Two factors allowed Deal to turn the corner: its renovation and its IB middle years accreditation which mandated full year science and social studies as well as foreign language classes. Hard to believe but even as recently as just a few years ago, DCPS didn't automatically provide those classes to its middle schoolers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/middle-schools-present-vexing-problem-for-dc-leaders-as-parents-choose-other-options/2014/02/17/29b95e24-93ef-11e3-83b9-1f024193bb84_story.html?utm_term=.c646e1fea321

I can remember circa 2008 when the Deal principal came to my non-Deal-feeder elementary school and addressed a PTA meeting. The message: "consider Deal." The renovation had just been completed and she was under pressure to get enrollment over 800.

And now she works for KIPP, and is on the board of at least one other charter school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Ok, ok -- there is a some fact and a ton of fiction in your post. On my third kid at Deal and have had a kid at the school since 2011. Nothing has really changed over there. I have never heard from any of them about problems finding a seat at lunch due to overcrowding. Have you ever been in the cafeteria during lunch? If not, I suggest you wander over and have a glance. You would be shocked at how orderly it is (thank you Ms. Neal!). Loud of course but plenty of room for kids to sit, move through the line, etc. Plus 99.99% of the kids sit in the exact same table each day. Parents aren't actively discouraged from having conferences on conference days. That bad system hasn't changed in all the years we have had a kid there. In fact, we never do conferences but I do speak with teachers regularly via e-mail. Much better than a conference. No idea about sports, I don't find my kids overly sporty but they have always been on teams at Deal. My DD just got on a team this spring having never played the sport before and is having fun. By 8th grade or so they have moved onto the clubs which are well run and more fun than the sports for my kids. I will say I find the size of some classes too big. Even with a coteacher my DD is now in a class with 31 kids. But overall, the place hasn't changed. It is amazing that they can do such a great job with so many kids. Breaking them into teams really gives the kids a small time school experience in a large school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Ok, ok -- there is a some fact and a ton of fiction in your post. On my third kid at Deal and have had a kid at the school since 2011. Nothing has really changed over there. I have never heard from any of them about problems finding a seat at lunch due to overcrowding. Have you ever been in the cafeteria during lunch? If not, I suggest you wander over and have a glance. You would be shocked at how orderly it is (thank you Ms. Neal!). Loud of course but plenty of room for kids to sit, move through the line, etc. Plus 99.99% of the kids sit in the exact same table each day. Parents aren't actively discouraged from having conferences on conference days. That bad system hasn't changed in all the years we have had a kid there. In fact, we never do conferences but I do speak with teachers regularly via e-mail. Much better than a conference. No idea about sports, I don't find my kids overly sporty but they have always been on teams at Deal. My DD just got on a team this spring having never played the sport before and is having fun. By 8th grade or so they have moved onto the clubs which are well run and more fun than the sports for my kids. I will say I find the size of some classes too big. Even with a coteacher my DD is now in a class with 31 kids. But overall, the place hasn't changed. It is amazing that they can do such a great job with so many kids. Breaking them into teams really gives the kids a small time school experience in a large school.

She's reading from the PTA talking points. I've heard so many people say this again and again but it's really not the case.

[Anonymous]

2030 and when they give up uniforms

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Hardy parent here. My 7th grader's science, honors math and honors English all have more than 30 students. Social Studies high 20s. Try understanding that when the school is actually underenrolled. Last week DC also had one substitute each day - same substitute, different subject. It was actually an improvement as there have been numerous days with no substitute coverage all so the kids were unsupervised until the gym teacher or an admin stepped in.

These are symptoms of poor management and a lack of leadership and it is time for everyone to thank the principal for getting the school to this point and find a new leader. Our ES has been increasing its IB election to Hardy the last several years, and it looks like a big drop-off for 6th grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Hardy parent here. My 7th grader's science, honors math and honors English all have more than 30 students. Social Studies high 20s. Try understanding that when the school is actually underenrolled. Last week DC also had one substitute each day - same substitute, different subject. It was actually an improvement as there have been numerous days with no substitute coverage all so the kids were unsupervised until the gym teacher or an admin stepped in.

These are symptoms of poor management and a lack of leadership and it is time for everyone to thank the principal for getting the school to this point and find a new leader. Our ES has been increasing its IB election to Hardy the last several years, and it looks like a big drop-off for 6th grade

Pathetic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Hardy parent here. My 7th grader's science, honors math and honors English all have more than 30 students. Social Studies high 20s. Try understanding that when the school is actually underenrolled. Last week DC also had one substitute each day - same substitute, different subject. It was actually an improvement as there have been numerous days with no substitute coverage all so the kids were unsupervised until the gym teacher or an admin stepped in.

These are symptoms of poor management and a lack of leadership and it is time for everyone to thank the principal for getting the school to this point and find a new leader. Our ES has been increasing its IB election to Hardy the last several years, and it looks like a big drop-off for 6th grade

Can you explain what it means when you say "it looks like a big drop-off for 6th grade?" My Hardy feeder is going to go from sending 20 for 6th grade this year to 30+ this fall...of course you never know until August.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Hardy parent here. My 7th grader's science, honors math and honors English all have more than 30 students. Social Studies high 20s. Try understanding that when the school is actually underenrolled. Last week DC also had one substitute each day - same substitute, different subject. It was actually an improvement as there have been numerous days with no substitute coverage all so the kids were unsupervised until the gym teacher or an admin stepped in.

These are symptoms of poor management and a lack of leadership and it is time for everyone to thank the principal for getting the school to this point and find a new leader. Our ES has been increasing its IB election to Hardy the last several years, and it looks like a big drop-off for 6th grade

Can you explain what it means when you say "it looks like a big drop-off for 6th grade?" My Hardy feeder is going to go from sending 20 for 6th grade this year to 30+ this fall...of course you never know until August.

Stoddert, right? I had also heard from a current 5th grade Stoddert parent that the numbers were up for kids heading to Hardy in the fall. (This is at least in part because it's nearly impossible to get into Latin now, and a few Stoddert parents who sent their kids to Basis now warn against it....and yes, I'm sure there are also parents who think Basis is fine.)

[Anonymous]

Big contingent of Stoddert students heading to Trinity and private schools for 6th grade. There were also several who were supposed to part of the large number of the cuirrent 5th grade that ended up getting off the waitlist to Basis for 5th grade. Polls/surveys from other feeders also indicate a float down over current 6th grade (a couple of 6th graders from IB feeders left mid-year for British school and other privates that were open to mid-year transfers). It's too bad as there had been a key group of families across the feeders that began working when students were still young to boost the reputation and make a commitment that they all take the plunge together. Maybe it's the current Hardy leadership, maybe it's the lack of being able have both vision and effective planning at DCPS, or maybe it's the mayor's commitment to improving middle school for EOTP locations. Ward 2/3 families don't seem to be a priority for any of these "leaders."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Big contingent of Stoddert students heading to Trinity and private schools for 6th grade. There were also several who were supposed to part of the large number of the cuirrent 5th grade that ended up getting off the waitlist to Basis for 5th grade. Polls/surveys from other feeders also indicate a float down over current 6th grade (a couple of 6th graders from IB feeders left mid-year for British school and other privates that were open to mid-year transfers). It's too bad as there had been a key group of families across the feeders that began working when students were still young to boost the reputation and make a commitment that they all take the plunge together. Maybe it's the current Hardy leadership, maybe it's the lack of being able have both vision and effective planning at DCPS, or maybe it's the mayor's commitment to improving middle school for EOTP locations. Ward 2/3 families don't seem to be a priority for any of these "leaders."

There are only 51 students at Stoddert in 5th grade. There just aren't enough of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't comment on Hardy but Deal seems to be past the tipping point. It's like survival of the fittest to find a seat at lunch because the cafeteria now has to hold hundreds more students than it was planned for. Some classes are well past 30 students in size. The sports teams are either so competitive to get a spot that many talented kids are cut or the are so poorly organized that its just a frustrating experience. Parents are actively discouraged from scheduling a conference with teachers on conference day because the teachers don't have the bandwidth to meet with all of the parents. Many of the student computers are broken and have not been repaired or replaced. Some of the teachers are good and the curriculum is moderately rigorous (a debatable issue) but the place is really showing the wear and tear of the overcrowding. I don't believe Deal students today have the same experience students did 4-5 years ago.

Ok, ok -- there is a some fact and a ton of fiction in your post. On my third kid at Deal and have had a kid at the school since 2011. Nothing has really changed over there. I have never heard from any of them about problems finding a seat at lunch due to overcrowding. Have you ever been in the cafeteria during lunch? If not, I suggest you wander over and have a glance. You would be shocked at how orderly it is (thank you Ms. Neal!). Loud of course but plenty of room for kids to sit, move through the line, etc. Plus 99.99% of the kids sit in the exact same table each day. Parents aren't actively discouraged from having conferences on conference days. That bad system hasn't changed in all the years we have had a kid there. In fact, we never do conferences but I do speak with teachers regularly via e-mail. Much better than a conference. No idea about sports, I don't find my kids overly sporty but they have always been on teams at Deal. My DD just got on a team this spring having never played the sport before and is having fun. By 8th grade or so they have moved onto the clubs which are well run and more fun than the sports for my kids. I will say I find the size of some classes too big. Even with a coteacher my DD is now in a class with 31 kids. But overall, the place hasn't changed. It is amazing that they can do such a great job with so many kids. Breaking them into teams really gives the kids a small time school experience in a large school.

She's reading from the PTA talking points. I've heard so many people say this again and again but it's really not the case.

I am the PP you are quoting. Not reading from the PTA talking points -- are there some? I must have missed those. Perhaps that's not the case for your child but it is for mine. Funny that is the one thing you picked out to dismiss from my post.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agreed. Deal is a good school, not a great school and at some point (which I think happened about 200 students ago) the law of diminishing returns kicks in. Having a middle school with 1500+ kids is not ideal. At first, the big student body works because it yields lots of per-pupil $ which means you can have all sorts of clubs and electives and sports and activities. Great. But then you also have the problems that really big schools have. The team model that Deal uses to try and make a big school feel small it admirable and creative but it's still a gargantuan school where the staff can't possibly know ever kid. In middle school, I think that is precisely the time when children need to know that they are known.

I just looked up the enrollment forecasts for MoCo middle schools for 17-18 and Westland and Pyle are both over 1500. Hardy is our MS and friends and DH keep saying we should rent a house in Bethesda for the MS years. I agree that DCPS is sliding backwards and the days of a Fenty-like mayor trying to make DC a viable alternative to MoCo are over and likely will never return. But i can't see that such a huge school size anywhere will help with the problems we have seen with Hardy and a teach-to-the-middle mentality. And my ES-age kids have been commenting on the endless drilling by their teachers for PARCC / the school is anxious to keeps its high scores. (I would not be be surprised to see some of the local real estate agents underwriting the math club aimed at coaching kids who scored 4s who could reach a 5 with extra tutoring. Houses in our 'hood have multiple offers after one day - but then their kids have to face Hardy.)