Why even waste the effort to apply to the top colleges at this point?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This focus on elite colleges is so out of control. There a thousands of universities where your kid can get a terrific education -- find one that fits.

You don't have to go to Harvard to excel in this life.

Yeah, but what about those of us who can only afford in-state colleges? If my high achieving DD fails to get in UVA or W&M, her only other choices are much lower ranked than what she could attend if we had the means for out of state/private.

There are a lot of us in that position. My DC has perfect PSAT scores and straight As in a math magnet, but will not be applying to Amherst, Harvard, etc. because we neither qualify for need-based aid, nor can pay $65K+/year for elite schools.

There are a lot of us in this position, especially in places like metro DC. This is why state flagships are becoming more competitive every year to get into.

I'm pretty sure this is why half the graduating class at TJ goes to Uva or W&M. Not because they can't get into the top schools in the country, but because financially it makes a lot of sense to stay at the in-state publics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was linked to this profile by Amherst College, a prestigious liberal arts college with a 14% admit rate: https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/669797

According to this,

75% of applicants with SAT critical reading scores of 750-800 were turned down.
78% of those with SAT math scores of 750-800 were ultimately turned down.
77% of those with SAT writing scores of 750-800 were ultimately turned down.
77% of those with ACT scores of 34-36 were ultimately turned down.

It becomes worse on the lower end (85% of 700-740s or 30-33s ultimately turned down).

What's the point in wasting $60-$80 in applying to colleges like Stanford, Ivies, U'Chicago, Amherst, Pomona, etc. when doing the absolute best you can isn't enough to get in? When so many of the slots are taken by athletes, legacies, students of color, or low-income students? I just find this appalling, honestly. I know test scores aren't the best predictors, but most of these kids rank in the top of their class and have great extracurricular involvements to boot. Is the average valedictorian just not good enough for the top schools at this day and time?

Omg, the unfairness of it al!!!! The truth is that people are putting kids in SAT prep to study to the test. So SAT results are inflated. Schools hand out A's so parents don't complain about them. So grades are inflated. Every A student is not ultra bright, they are average. In fact most of them haven't had an original thought in their lives, they have been taught to cram and regurgitate on tests. This is why lower income and minority students are getting those slots. So if you want junior to get in, make a donation to the school- 50K min.

This does ring true...especially in DC. It seems like everyone I know has children with straights A's (or heaven forbid, a B in one class) high scores and great extracurricular. And everyone thinks their kid is Ivy bound, or going to a comparable school. It's a total crapshoot at this point. I can't really blame the schools. I wish they would abolish the common app. That would lower the amount of students applying to so many schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP you are forgetting the millions of foreign students, especially from China and India who are coming to the U.S. to study. They apply with perfect scores and get in because the colleges want diversity.

Not as much as before.
Many more are going to study in Europe where quality higher education is much more accessible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you are forgetting the millions of foreign students, especially from China and India who are coming to the U.S. to study. They apply with perfect scores and get in because the colleges want diversity.

Amherst only admitted 5% of international students (https://www.amherst.edu/admission/apply/international/enrollment)

false. 9% of 2020 class is international and that's low for most U.S. unviersities. Note 50% of American Students of Color. http://amherststudent.amherst.edu/?q=article/2016/04/06/admissions-accepts-137-percent-class-2020

[Anonymous]

Parent of kid who got into Amherst and several ivies: High scores are great, as are good grades, but I am quite sure what got my kid in was at least one teacher recommendation, in which she talked about his enthusiasm for learning (not just getting grades) but actually learning new things, and his serious committment to social issues. He also received national attention for some of his work in the community. He didn't do this to get into college, in fact the time this activity took, may have resulted in slighly lower gpa (at his high school with grade deflation). We didn't worry about his college admissions. We encouraged our child to care about other people and to act accordingly. We are so proud of him. It doesn't matter where he goes to college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP you are forgetting the millions of foreign students, especially from China and India who are coming to the U.S. to study. They apply with perfect scores and get in because the colleges want diversity.

Millions? I doubt it.

Yes, over a million and climbing. https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/11/14/annual-open-doors-report-documents-continued-growth-international-students-us-and-us

[Anonymous]

Following 16:00's comment, I would be VERY interested to hear if any DCUMers are sending their children abroad to universities in Europe where the language of instruction is English. Yesterday was the first time I'd heard of a NoVA kid heading to Grenoble for undergrad in Business. The cost difference from US universities knocked me for six.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What's the point in wasting $60-$80 in applying to colleges like Stanford, Ivies, U'Chicago, Amherst, Pomona, etc. when doing the absolute best you can isn't enough to get in? When so many of the slots are taken by athletes, legacies, students of color, or low-income students? I just find this appalling, honestly. I know test scores aren't the best predictors, but most of these kids rank in the top of their class and have great extracurricular involvements to boot. Is the average valedictorian just not good enough for the top schools at this day and time?

No, the average valedictorian is not good enough. They never were. Admission to elite colleges is not that different than it was 30 years ago. Yes, the test scores are higher, but the SAT was recentered. Yes, GPA are higher, but that's because many high schools converted their college prep track into AP classes. Yes, low-income students are judged by how they take advantage of the opportunities they have, but they constitute a tiny fraction of the elite school populations. Yes, students of color have lower test scores, but they are also still grossly underrepresented. But, legacies at the elite schools have higher scores than non-legacy and the average Ivy recruited athlete would be in the top 25% at D1 land grant college.

The common app means a lot more applications and lower admit rates, but a lot of the applications are from students who approach it as if it were a lottery and submit 10+ applications. No one waltzed into the elite schools 30 years ago. We all know students with a wow factor - they're natural leaders, really intellectual, and have presence. These students are still getting in relatively easily to the elite schools. I interview 25+ students every year for my Ivy alma mater. Most of the standout applicants get in, despite the single digit admit rates, and those that don't get into my college go to another elite school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This focus on elite colleges is so out of control. There a thousands of universities where your kid can get a terrific education -- find one that fits.

You don't have to go to Harvard to excel in this life.

Yeah, but what about those of us who can only afford in-state colleges? If my high achieving DD fails to get in UVA or W&M, her only other choices are much lower ranked than what she could attend if we had the means for out of state/private.

There are a lot of us in that position. My DC has perfect PSAT scores and straight As in a math magnet, but will not be applying to Amherst, Harvard, etc. because we neither qualify for need-based aid, nor can pay $65K+/year for elite schools.

There are a lot of us in this position, especially in places like metro DC. This is why state flagships are becoming more competitive every year to get into.

True. But if your kid is a great student with high stats, there is a staggering amount of merit money available out there from both private and public schools. You just have to broaden your focus and look beyond the tippy top schools.

[Anonymous]

OP-- I agree with you100%. Because of this, state schools are going to get a lot harder to get into. My flagship school has a top 10 program in my kid's major and I feel like I am getting such a better value than the kids who will be attending schools like Amherst for $60+ a year. State schools are the way to go.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This focus on elite colleges is so out of control. There a thousands of universities where your kid can get a terrific education -- find one that fits.

You don't have to go to Harvard to excel in this life.

Yeah, but what about those of us who can only afford in-state colleges? If my high achieving DD fails to get in UVA or W&M, her only other choices are much lower ranked than what she could attend if we had the means for out of state/private.

There are a lot of us in that position. My DC has perfect PSAT scores and straight As in a math magnet, but will not be applying to Amherst, Harvard, etc. because we neither qualify for need-based aid, nor can pay $65K+/year for elite schools.

There are a lot of us in this position, especially in places like metro DC. This is why state flagships are becoming more competitive every year to get into.

True. But if your kid is a great student with high stats, there is a staggering amount of merit money available out there from both private and public schools. You just have to broaden your focus and look beyond the tippy top schools.

Yes, I know that.

My point is that DCUM'ers seem to use the term "top schools" and "elite schools" as proxies for high-performing students. It is not that simple.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP you are forgetting the millions of foreign students, especially from China and India who are coming to the U.S. to study. They apply with perfect scores and get in because the colleges want diversity.

They want diversity and students who pay full, non discounted, price.

[Anonymous]

Go state school. About half my workers are ivy (Harvard and MIT) and the other half are state schools. Im picky when hiring and don't notice a difference in performance between the two types schools in my office. In fact the best performing employee is from a state school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was linked to this profile by Amherst College, a prestigious liberal arts college with a 14% admit rate: https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/669797

Fascinating numbers. I'd be curios to see similar stats (about applications not just admits) from other schools. Any ideas on how to find?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was linked to this profile by Amherst College, a prestigious liberal arts college with a 14% admit rate: https://www.amherst.edu/media/view/669797

Fascinating numbers. I'd be curios to see similar stats (about applications not just admits) from other schools. Any ideas on how to find?

Google Common Data Set + name of school