The latest ranking of top countries in math, reading, and science (PISA 2016)

[Anonymous]

IMO, public schools don't spend enough time on basics before moving on to higher level skills. I'm a teacher (on my lunch break) and my first graders are expected to be able to write a paragraph using cited evidence from the text. I didn't do that until 9th grade. I teach in a Title One school and most students cannot write a sentence when they start the school year. I'd rather we focus on basic sentence writing skills instead of expecting paragraphs at this age. If a student is capable of it, great but our students aren't for the most part. I then hear from teachers in the upper grades that students are writing run on sentences, sentence fragments, etc. Handwriting should be emphasized too but it isn't (I emphasize it but...). My child goes to a Catholic school and they aren't expecting such high standards for first graders. One or two well developed sentences is all they are looking for. The kids focus on the parts of speech and what makes up a sentence. This is glossed over in public school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who got primarily and secondary education from outside of US and attended college in US knows these scores are representative. Every college professor knows this. If you never get primary education outside US, you don't even know you what don't know.

Is there a specific area where the US curriculum is lacking, in your opinion? Or is this an overall impression?

I'm wondering, since it is an interesting question. Also, because it is a useful question for parents who are school shopping or supplementing at home. It's always good to know what big thing you are not seeing.

it's not the curriculum. Mostly it's the teachers. In my home country, teaching is a profession that is highly respected and hard to get in. This holds true in both primarily and secondary schools. Some of the best students go to teaching. It's not the same here and good teachers are particularly lacking in elementary schools.

Interesting. In my country it's the parents, who see their role in actively shaping our kids intellects, values and behaviors, instead of just outsourcing that work to schools or to "society."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who got primarily and secondary education from outside of US and attended college in US knows these scores are representative. Every college professor knows this. If you never get primary education outside US, you don't even know you what don't know.

Is there a specific area where the US curriculum is lacking, in your opinion? Or is this an overall impression?

I'm wondering, since it is an interesting question. Also, because it is a useful question for parents who are school shopping or supplementing at home. It's always good to know what big thing you are not seeing.

it's not the curriculum. Mostly it's the teachers. In my home country, teaching is a profession that is highly respected and hard to get in. This holds true in both primarily and secondary schools. Some of the best students go to teaching. It's not the same here and good teachers are particularly lacking in elementary schools.

Interesting. In my country it's the parents, who see their role in actively shaping our kids intellects, values and behaviors, instead of just outsourcing that work to schools or to "society."

So I take it you home school, then?

Teachers teach subject matter, the academics. Parents teach their kids to behave, listen, and value education. If the kid needs help with academics at home, then parents should work with the kids. Parents provide enriching activities, like trips to libraries and museums. Teachers play a huge role.

[Anonymous]

I personally experienced European and Asian schooling, one of my children went to school in France, and my kids are now here in MCPS.

The math (and writing) curriculum here is NOWHERE NEAR as rigorous and in-depth as the ones I experienced or my son experienced internationally.

Here they pass students as long they have gotten basic rules of computing down. Not so in other countries. We were set problems to challenge us, so that the difficulty wasn't the computing part or application of simple mathematics, but more deconstructing the problem and seeing how to implement a solution.

Same for writing. Here in middle school all they required of students is a few paragraphs. I was writing essays by then, and woe to students who couldn't spell or clearly articulate concepts with rich vocab.

My point is that the US curriculum is a mile wide and an inch thick, where other countries teach less concepts but go more in-depth so that students are taught to THINK.

What's lacking in the US K-12 education are critical thinking and rigor, and it shows... it gives a multitude of young adults who "know" things but are incapable of connecting the dots to form and express interesting thoughts. The ones who make it to graduate school are the few who have developed this on their own or through their families' more stringent intellectual standards. Actually, there are a lot of international students in US graduate schools, and I've noticed that they're usually top of the class!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO, public schools don't spend enough time on basics before moving on to higher level skills. I'm a teacher (on my lunch break) and my first graders are expected to be able to write a paragraph using cited evidence from the text. I didn't do that until 9th grade. I teach in a Title One school and most students cannot write a sentence when they start the school year. I'd rather we focus on basic sentence writing skills instead of expecting paragraphs at this age. If a student is capable of it, great but our students aren't for the most part. I then hear from teachers in the upper grades that students are writing run on sentences, sentence fragments, etc. Handwriting should be emphasized too but it isn't (I emphasize it but...). My child goes to a Catholic school and they aren't expecting such high standards for first graders. One or two well developed sentences is all they are looking for. The kids focus on the parts of speech and what makes up a sentence. This is glossed over in public school.

This is interesting.

I wonder if we are SO focused in the U.S. on, say, critical developmental windows and early childhood education that we do older students a disservice. Of course, these things are important, but are we sending the message that if a child isn't reading fluently by 6, or writing paragraphs by 7, that they shouldn't be expected to be reading challenging works and writing elegantly and with precision by the time they are 15? Do higher expectations of first graders really pay off in higher expectations of high schoolers, or do they result in more and more kids being perceived as lagging behind, being slow, or not "good" at something-- by themselves or their teachers or their parents-- and by the time it really counts, they've lost all motivation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO, public schools don't spend enough time on basics before moving on to higher level skills. I'm a teacher (on my lunch break) and my first graders are expected to be able to write a paragraph using cited evidence from the text. I didn't do that until 9th grade. I teach in a Title One school and most students cannot write a sentence when they start the school year. I'd rather we focus on basic sentence writing skills instead of expecting paragraphs at this age. If a student is capable of it, great but our students aren't for the most part. I then hear from teachers in the upper grades that students are writing run on sentences, sentence fragments, etc. Handwriting should be emphasized too but it isn't (I emphasize it but...). My child goes to a Catholic school and they aren't expecting such high standards for first graders. One or two well developed sentences is all they are looking for. The kids focus on the parts of speech and what makes up a sentence. This is glossed over in public school.

Where are 1st graders writing a paragraph and citing evidence from a text? School or School system? My child didn't do that till 4th grade and is in a gifted program. Seriously, I would like to know. I've never heard of this.

Agree that grammar should be brought back to elementary. I think it was being taught all the way into high school and people rightly reacted to say that by that time kids should be focusing on more expressive ways of writing so that their writing isn't stifled, but to never teach it is a mistake. There was an overreaction to grammar that hasn't been corrected in public schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I personally experienced European and Asian schooling, one of my children went to school in France, and my kids are now here in MCPS.

The math (and writing) curriculum here is NOWHERE NEAR as rigorous and in-depth as the ones I experienced or my son experienced internationally.

Here they pass students as long they have gotten basic rules of computing down. Not so in other countries. We were set problems to challenge us, so that the difficulty wasn't the computing part or application of simple mathematics, but more deconstructing the problem and seeing how to implement a solution.

Same for writing. Here in middle school all they required of students is a few paragraphs. I was writing essays by then, and woe to students who couldn't spell or clearly articulate concepts with rich vocab.

My point is that the US curriculum is a mile wide and an inch thick, where other countries teach less concepts but go more in-depth so that students are taught to THINK.

What's lacking in the US K-12 education are critical thinking and rigor, and it shows... it gives a multitude of young adults who "know" things but are incapable of connecting the dots to form and express interesting thoughts. The ones who make it to graduate school are the few who have developed this on their own or through their families' more stringent intellectual standards. Actually, there are a lot of international students in US graduate schools, and I've noticed that they're usually top of the class!

Agree. The US is trying to cover too many things and as a result isn't teaching any of them well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, public schools don't spend enough time on basics before moving on to higher level skills. I'm a teacher (on my lunch break) and my first graders are expected to be able to write a paragraph using cited evidence from the text. I didn't do that until 9th grade. I teach in a Title One school and most students cannot write a sentence when they start the school year. I'd rather we focus on basic sentence writing skills instead of expecting paragraphs at this age. If a student is capable of it, great but our students aren't for the most part. I then hear from teachers in the upper grades that students are writing run on sentences, sentence fragments, etc. Handwriting should be emphasized too but it isn't (I emphasize it but...). My child goes to a Catholic school and they aren't expecting such high standards for first graders. One or two well developed sentences is all they are looking for. The kids focus on the parts of speech and what makes up a sentence. This is glossed over in public school.

Where are 1st graders writing a paragraph and citing evidence from a text? School or School system? My child didn't do that till 4th grade and is in a gifted program. Seriously, I would like to know. I've never heard of this.

Agree that grammar should be brought back to elementary. I think it was being taught all the way into high school and people rightly reacted to say that by that time kids should be focusing on more expressive ways of writing so that their writing isn't stifled, but to never teach it is a mistake. There was an overreaction to grammar that hasn't been corrected in public schools.

This is in Baltimore City schools. I'm all for high standards but I would rather the focus be on how to write one or two legible complete sentences than on citing evidence from a text in a paragraph. We review letter names and sounds at the beginning of 1st grade and most of our students need it since they enter 1st grade after having lost many reading levels over the summer. By the end of the year, they are expected to be able to write a paragraph? Pretty unrealistic for many 1st graders here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who got primarily and secondary education from outside of US and attended college in US knows these scores are representative. Every college professor knows this. If you never get primary education outside US, you don't even know you what don't know.

Is there a specific area where the US curriculum is lacking, in your opinion? Or is this an overall impression?

I'm wondering, since it is an interesting question. Also, because it is a useful question for parents who are school shopping or supplementing at home. It's always good to know what big thing you are not seeing.

it's not the curriculum. Mostly it's the teachers. In my home country, teaching is a profession that is highly respected and hard to get in. This holds true in both primarily and secondary schools. Some of the best students go to teaching. It's not the same here and good teachers are particularly lacking in elementary schools.

Interesting. In my country it's the parents, who see their role in actively shaping our kids intellects, values and behaviors, instead of just outsourcing that work to schools or to "society."

So I take it you home school, then?

Teachers teach subject matter, the academics. Parents teach their kids to behave, listen, and value education. If the kid needs help with academics at home, then parents should work with the kids. Parents provide enriching activities, like trips to libraries and museums. Teachers play a huge role.

What a deficient and narrow thought process. Our kids enjoy both school AND home school -- see how that's better than just one or the other?

I hope you are not a teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who got primarily and secondary education from outside of US and attended college in US knows these scores are representative. Every college professor knows this. If you never get primary education outside US, you don't even know you what don't know.

Is there a specific area where the US curriculum is lacking, in your opinion? Or is this an overall impression?

I'm wondering, since it is an interesting question. Also, because it is a useful question for parents who are school shopping or supplementing at home. It's always good to know what big thing you are not seeing.

it's not the curriculum. Mostly it's the teachers. In my home country, teaching is a profession that is highly respected and hard to get in. This holds true in both primarily and secondary schools. Some of the best students go to teaching. It's not the same here and good teachers are particularly lacking in elementary schools.

Interesting. In my country it's the parents, who see their role in actively shaping our kids intellects, values and behaviors, instead of just outsourcing that work to schools or to "society."

So I take it you home school, then?

Teachers teach subject matter, the academics. Parents teach their kids to behave, listen, and value education. If the kid needs help with academics at home, then parents should work with the kids. Parents provide enriching activities, like trips to libraries and museums. Teachers play a huge role.

What a deficient and narrow thought process. Our kids enjoy both school AND home school -- see how that's better than just one or the other?

I hope you are not a teacher.

oh brother.. I'm sure your kids "enjoy" going to another school when they come home rather than playing with their friends.

I'm Korean. I know all about the pressures of "home" school, ie, cram school. A lot of Koreans escape this if they can.

Sure, those kids can beat a lot of American kids at the PISA test. They also have a higher suicide rate pretty much all due to academic pressures. No thank you.

[Anonymous]

Posted this earlier on another thread:


If you look at the breakdowns by racial group (averaging all three sections), whites in the US scored 519, Asians scored 517, Hispanics scored 465 and blacks scored 432.

To put this in perspective, the OECD average score is 492 , and the standard deviation is supposed to be 100. Averaged scores from other countries:

Japan - 529
Canada - 523
Finland - 523
Korea - 519
Germany - 508
Norway - 504
UK -500
Russia - 492
Hungary - 474
Mexico - 416
Dominican Republic - 339

Based on current immigration trends, I don't see our average going up. It has very little to do with the quality of education n the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This test is only given to 15 year olds? I'm sure in many countries, the top students are the ones taking this test. The rest of the students are probably enrolled in non-academic tracks. Not so in this country where everyone is supposed to be college and career ready but they've gotten rid of so many vocational programs for high schoolers.

Every time someone offers this up as an excuse. This is from the PISA FAQ "A key objective of PISA is to inform and support education policy decision making within countries. A three-year cycle provides countries with timely information that includes data and analyses to consider the impact of policy decisions and related programs. If it were more frequent it would not allow sufficient time for changes and innovations to show improvement or decline, and if it were less frequent it would mean declines in performance could not be promptly addressed.

The average age of 15 was chosen because at this age young people in most OECD countries are nearing the end of compulsory education. The selection of schools and students is as inclusive as possible, so that the sample of students comes from a broad range of backgrounds and abilities."

In many countries around the world, 15 is the last year of middle school, and the last year of compulsory schooling. High school is often only 3 year and may indeed be voluntary. So the samples are quite comparable across countries.

So then why does China only test students in Beijing, Shanghai and Guangdong? Why not a true random sample across the country?

[Anonymous]

If you believe in science it all comes down to race and IQ. The US system is based on science denial, thus the endless complex illogical verbose houses of cards constructed by the science deniers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pisa test scores are on greatschools.
TJ in FcPs outranks any country. And many (most?) FCPS high schools are ranked in the top 5 along with Finland. Even my GS 5 high school is up there.

Very interesting point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you believe in science it all comes down to race and IQ. The US system is based on science denial, thus the endless complex illogical verbose houses of cards constructed by the science deniers.

Yup. It's interesting that the patterns of scores we see among racial groups in the US are mirrored by the patterns of scores of their countries of origin. Can't notice that though.