I disagree with the decision to let Semenya and Chand compete

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I feel if you have testicles, you should compete against other athletes with testicles...

Especially if you don't have a uterus or ovaries. Hello that's a MAN. you got the balls they are just undecended. It is a well known medical condition of MEN.

[Anonymous]

Urology Care Foundation - What are Undescended Testicles (Cryptorchidism)?
www.urologyhealth.org › cryptorchidism

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A female with no ovaries is still a female, not a man
Where do you draw the line for testosterone? Are you going to test all women, or just the ones from a poor country?
Are short women OK, but not tall

How is the sport fair? Do we only look at internal sex organs, and ban only women who can never have children, or do we look at height, family wealth, length of arms, legs and other factors too?

We already draw a line for males at 4:1 T/E ratio. Arguing that you have a naturally off-the-charts T/E ratio is not a defense, even though it is theoretically possible. Many lines are drawn in sport. We have weight classes, height classes, age classes. Breaking out competition by sex is drawing a line.

And if you are going to break competition out by sex it has to mean something. Men are better at sports because of testosterone, which drives all the other secondary advantages in structural robustness, strength, reactivity, bone density, etc. There may be many constructions of gender by which Caster Semenya can be understood to be a woman. She is not, however, female as that word is meaningfully contemplated in the context of a speed/power sport.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A female with no ovaries is still a female, not a man
Where do you draw the line for testosterone? Are you going to test all women, or just the ones from a poor country?
Are short women OK, but not tall

How is the sport fair? Do we only look at internal sex organs, and ban only women who can never have children, or do we look at height, family wealth, length of arms, legs and other factors too?

We already draw a line for males at 4:1 T/E ratio. Arguing that you have a naturally off-the-charts T/E ratio is not a defense, even though it is theoretically possible. Many lines are drawn in sport. We have weight classes, height classes, age classes. Breaking out competition by sex is drawing a line.

And if you are going to break competition out by sex it has to mean something. Men are better at sports because of testosterone, which drives all the other secondary advantages in structural robustness, strength, reactivity, bone density, etc. There may be many constructions of gender by which Caster Semenya can be understood to be a woman. She is not, however, female as that word is meaningfully contemplated in the context of a speed/power sport.

My thoughts exactly.
/End thread

[Anonymous]

My husband and I have discussed this at length re: Semenya; he is a physician. No good answer, it seems, that would be fair to both Semenya and the women she competes against. Will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I have discussed this at length re: Semenya; he is a physician. No good answer, it seems, that would be fair to both Semenya and the women she competes against. Will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved.

I suppose this is a legal question, did she cheat, did she break a rule, can the international Olympics only test women for testosterone but not men, what is average, can a healthy person be required to have surgery that they do not need?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I have discussed this at length re: Semenya; he is a physician. No good answer, it seems, that would be fair to both Semenya and the women she competes against. Will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved.

I suppose this is a legal question, did she cheat, did she break a rule, can the international Olympics only test women for testosterone but not men, what is average, can a healthy person be required to have surgery that they do not need?

Why do you keep bringing up surgery? The IOC isn't forcing an athlete to have surgery. They would just not be allowed to compete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I have discussed this at length re: Semenya; he is a physician. No good answer, it seems, that would be fair to both Semenya and the women she competes against. Will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved.

I suppose this is a legal question, did she cheat, did she break a rule, can the international Olympics only test women for testosterone but not men, what is average, can a healthy person be required to have surgery that they do not need?

Why do you keep bringing up surgery? The IOC isn't forcing an athlete to have surgery. They would just not be allowed to compete.

Not be allowed to compete under what rule?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I have discussed this at length re: Semenya; he is a physician. No good answer, it seems, that would be fair to both Semenya and the women she competes against. Will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved.

I suppose this is a legal question, did she cheat, did she break a rule, can the international Olympics only test women for testosterone but not men, what is average, can a healthy person be required to have surgery that they do not need?

Why do you keep bringing up surgery? The IOC isn't forcing an athlete to have surgery. They would just not be allowed to compete.

Not be allowed to compete under what rule?

There is no rule, I'm asking why the PP keeps bringing up surgery. The IOC wouldn't force athletes into surgery, they just wouldn't be allowed to compete.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My husband and I have discussed this at length re: Semenya; he is a physician. No good answer, it seems, that would be fair to both Semenya and the women she competes against. Will be interesting to see how this is finally resolved.

I suppose this is a legal question, did she cheat, did she break a rule, can the international Olympics only test women for testosterone but not men, what is average, can a healthy person be required to have surgery that they do not need?

Why do you keep bringing up surgery? The IOC isn't forcing an athlete to have surgery. They would just not be allowed to compete.

Not be allowed to compete under what rule?

There is no rule, I'm asking why the PP keeps bringing up surgery. The IOC wouldn't force athletes into surgery, they just wouldn't be allowed to compete.

They just wouldn't be allowed to compete in the women's part of the competition.
Agree with above that if the competition is divided in some way (weight, sex, ...) then there have to be standards for that division. In the case of weight, it's easy. In the case of sex, it's easy for 99%+ of the population. For the non-binary, there has to be a line. I would tend to agree that a reasonable line is "presence of testes".

[Anonymous]

Perhaps what one other poster suggested is the fairest and best way.

If an athlete has testicles (even undecended), male levels of testosterone, and no ovaries, they compete as males.

Wambui was a full head taller than all the women competing. She is built like a male athlete. If she has the body of a male athlete, the muscles of the male athletes, the hormone levels of male athletes, and testicals then it is unfair for her to participate in the female races.

Ok, so how will you know? Are you going to force every single female athlete to undergo a transabdominal ultrasound, or just the ones who look insufficiently "female" for your tastes?

Semena and Chand had no idea they were intersex, which means there are likely other athletes who have no idea they are genetic abnormalities. So, who are you going to test?

What about the men, are you going to test them? Michael Phelps has several genetic traits that make him hyper competitive. He's taller than average. His feet and hands are MASSIVE even relative to his size, and he's double jointed. If you could find the genetic marker for what makes him great, would you force him to compete against dolphins instead of other men?

[Anonymous]

Swimming: not a good comparison. The only divisions are men and women.

Running: If there is a division, there has to be a way to determine it and, if necessary, examine for it.

For nearly all competitors, a standard cheek swab and drug-test-like exam would (I think) be enough to determine if the genetic makeup is XX and if testosterone levels are in the normal range.

Then if these two tests indicate something unusual, other diagnostics (ultrasound, other) would be called in. These diagnostics would only be needed for a small minority of competitors.

Of course, I would also support very transparent rules and the idea that serious competitors would be tested early in their careers so as not to be surprised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Swimming: not a good comparison. The only divisions are men and women.

Running: If there is a division, there has to be a way to determine it and, if necessary, examine for it.

For nearly all competitors, a standard cheek swab and drug-test-like exam would (I think) be enough to determine if the genetic makeup is XX and if testosterone levels are in the normal range.

Then if these two tests indicate something unusual, other diagnostics (ultrasound, other) would be called in. These diagnostics would only be needed for a small minority of competitors.

Of course, I would also support very transparent rules and the idea that serious competitors would be tested early in their careers so as not to be surprised.

...but WHY is testosterone the defining factor here? It seems like this is a "rule" meant to harass women who are insufficiently feminine while leaving all of the other genetic "freaks" alone. Most Olympic calibre athletes are weird in some way, but the only folks being subjected to humiliating testing are women of color from poor countries.

[Anonymous]

Presence of unusually high levels of testosterone in a woman is an indication that her genetic makeup might not be XX and/or that she has testes. It all comes back to how you are going to define "female" and "male" if there are going to be separate "female" and "male" competition groups.

I would feel exactly the same way about testing of 1970s East German swimmers, who were as pale as they come.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why not disallow freakishly tall people from playing basketball or freakishly tiny people from gymnastic because they have a genetic advantage, too?

Exactly. Why is this so hard to understand? Everyone at the Olympics is exceptional, many because of biology. You're just squeamish because you can identify some specific abnormality that might be helping her. Most sprinters have an OD of fast twitch muscles. Why not ban them too for their genetic "abnormality" and give us "normal" athletes a chance?