Charter schools misrepresenting themselves

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Misleading marketing to increase market share?

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

My wish for the new year is for people like you to explain this argument. To believe your constant flow of trolling one would need to believe that all of us in HRCS are fools who have no idea that are kids are being duped. [SIGH]

We do. You have been duped into siding with political forces that want to privatize (to either carve out little enclaves or either to earn profit from or have freedom from adhering to state guidelines or ALL THREE).

Fortunately, DC is much more aware and more active in holding charters accountable -- and becoming more so all the time -- but there is little denying what charters are in a nationwide sense.

So, yes, those of you in DC who reflexively defend charters across the board are misguided and misinformed.

No clue from what useless think tank (or Teacher Union) you are writing, but I think you may have gotten confused and wandered into the forum on DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Stop and read that again; I'll wait. "What charters are in a nationwide sense"? I do not care about any grand conspiracy or the nature of charters across the country. I care about DC, and here in DC we have some great charters that afford many of us the option to have access to schools without moving to upper NW. Your political forces and privatization garbage doesn't fly here, since most charters are run by non-profits t hat operate one or two charters, not huge corporations. Your BS about holding them more accountable also doesn't comport with reality. The DCPCSB has always held them to account and actually closes schools.

In a way, though, I should thank you for your transparency. I've wondered for some time how you and your charter-haters seem to know so very little about the DC Charters and have so little perspective on the reality of the DC schools system. Now I know; you know nothing because you know nothing. Cause the forum is DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Hoping repetition might help.

You choose to reply with...semantics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a competitive school market place - and that's what we have in DC, public, private, charter - advertisement and promises come with the game (annual budget = number of students * per pupil allotment). Mostly, that's a good thing because schools have to market themselves, brand, convince people and prove they're worth staying and getting involved. An established school doesn't really have an interest in badly misrepresenting its core offerings. A start-up is in a different boat. Its success critically depends on some wishful thinking. Exaggerated and hypothetical promises are a way to attract the required numbers of students to actually follow through, eventually. "Leave" (opt out, vote with your feet, shop elsewhere) is really the option the market offers you, with the idea that the bad player will then go "out of business" and that only the best are left standing.

I personally don't think this is entirely working out and notoriously inflated promises are a problem all around because education "markets" fail for a number of reasons. For one, we're neither able, nor willing to "shop elsewhere" the way we'd change a grocery store if we're disappointed in the products. Also, we're notoriously ill informed about what's actually happening. At best, when kids are a little older, we can rely on them to fully inform us; but mostly we get a very partial glimpse at it. Lastly, we won't know definitively how good our kids' education was until they're in college or the workforce.

Examples, please? I mean if they are notorious then you should be able to rattle off 5 or 10 no problem?

Where is the outrage for those schools that have zero % with a PARCC 4 or 5 and still get to call themselves schools? DC Navel gazers crack me up.

With average PARCC scores...
Options PCS 0%
Tree of Life PCS 5%
Potomac Preparatory PCS 6%
Somerset Prep PCS 8%
Center City Capitol Hill PCS 8%
Democracy Prep PCS 9%
Center City Trinidad PCS 11%
Mary McLeod Bethune PCS 12%

Just starting at the bottom. I can keep going if you like.

I am outraged about DCPS that are failing, but you can't just close a bunch of neighborhood schools. Those are a basic right for families in those areas even though they aren't working well. I'm all for any good ideas to improve them. But who needs failing citywide charter schools also?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a competitive school market place - and that's what we have in DC, public, private, charter - advertisement and promises come with the game (annual budget = number of students * per pupil allotment). Mostly, that's a good thing because schools have to market themselves, brand, convince people and prove they're worth staying and getting involved. An established school doesn't really have an interest in badly misrepresenting its core offerings. A start-up is in a different boat. Its success critically depends on some wishful thinking. Exaggerated and hypothetical promises are a way to attract the required numbers of students to actually follow through, eventually. "Leave" (opt out, vote with your feet, shop elsewhere) is really the option the market offers you, with the idea that the bad player will then go "out of business" and that only the best are left standing.

I personally don't think this is entirely working out and notoriously inflated promises are a problem all around because education "markets" fail for a number of reasons. For one, we're neither able, nor willing to "shop elsewhere" the way we'd change a grocery store if we're disappointed in the products. Also, we're notoriously ill informed about what's actually happening. At best, when kids are a little older, we can rely on them to fully inform us; but mostly we get a very partial glimpse at it. Lastly, we won't know definitively how good our kids' education was until they're in college or the workforce.

Examples, please? I mean if they are notorious then you should be able to rattle off 5 or 10 no problem?

Where is the outrage for those schools that have zero % with a PARCC 4 or 5 and still get to call themselves schools? DC Navel gazers crack me up.

With average PARCC scores...
Options PCS 0%
Tree of Life PCS 5%
Potomac Preparatory PCS 6%
Somerset Prep PCS 8%
Center City Capitol Hill PCS 8%
Democracy Prep PCS 9%
Center City Trinidad PCS 11%
Mary McLeod Bethune PCS 12%

Just starting at the bottom. I can keep going if you like.

I am outraged about DCPS that are failing, but you can't just close a bunch of neighborhood schools. Those are a basic right for families in those areas even though they aren't working well. I'm all for any good ideas to improve them. But who needs failing citywide charter schools also?

I agree, let's close them. Pretty sure none of us at HRCS would care. Of course, those Options kids have to go somewhere. Don't know if you live here and know what Options is, but (besides the horrible corruption and mismanagement) it services a very high risk population. But, hey,m send them to their by right schools. Won't impact top performing charter schools. Or JKLM, Brent or Ross where those kids don't live. But it will drag down their by right local schools.

There's no easy answers here. That's th part that is frustrating about people like you with single-minded agendas. Charters aren't the answer to everything, but neither are they they problem for everything. Every action has an impact elsewhere (butterfly flaps its wings etc.) Charter schools very successfully service many families in DC. Don't take my word for it, take the actions of families like mine who stayed in DC and are big fans of our schools. This isn't an academic argument for most of us; it is about our kids and their education. Your grand policy position BS is uninteresting and a red herring.

P.S. Can't help but notice you can't name a single "notoriously inflated promise". Which, was, after all, the point of this all before you and your little policy argument friends (as usual) tried to hijack the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Misleading marketing to increase market share?

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

My wish for the new year is for people like you to explain this argument. To believe your constant flow of trolling one would need to believe that all of us in HRCS are fools who have no idea that are kids are being duped. [SIGH]

We do. You have been duped into siding with political forces that want to privatize (to either carve out little enclaves or either to earn profit from or have freedom from adhering to state guidelines or ALL THREE).

Fortunately, DC is much more aware and more active in holding charters accountable -- and becoming more so all the time -- but there is little denying what charters are in a nationwide sense.

So, yes, those of you in DC who reflexively defend charters across the board are misguided and misinformed.

No clue from what useless think tank (or Teacher Union) you are writing, but I think you may have gotten confused and wandered into the forum on DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Stop and read that again; I'll wait. "What charters are in a nationwide sense"? I do not care about any grand conspiracy or the nature of charters across the country. I care about DC, and here in DC we have some great charters that afford many of us the option to have access to schools without moving to upper NW. Your political forces and privatization garbage doesn't fly here, since most charters are run by non-profits t hat operate one or two charters, not huge corporations. Your BS about holding them more accountable also doesn't comport with reality. The DCPCSB has always held them to account and actually closes schools.

In a way, though, I should thank you for your transparency. I've wondered for some time how you and your charter-haters seem to know so very little about the DC Charters and have so little perspective on the reality of the DC schools system. Now I know; you know nothing because you know nothing. Cause the forum is DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Hoping repetition might help.

You choose to reply with...semantics?

Umm...I do not think that word means what you think it means. Your reply talked about charters nationwide, the grand policy argument behind charters and privatization and completely ignored the reality of DC charters and the fact that this is a forum specifically about DC schools. I replied by talking specifically about the DC experience and the success here.

Do you think it is semantics to call out the fact that you full of crap and worried about an academic policy argument when most of us are concerned about educating our kids, our neighborhoods and our local schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In a competitive school market place - and that's what we have in DC, public, private, charter - advertisement and promises come with the game (annual budget = number of students * per pupil allotment). Mostly, that's a good thing because schools have to market themselves, brand, convince people and prove they're worth staying and getting involved. An established school doesn't really have an interest in badly misrepresenting its core offerings. A start-up is in a different boat. Its success critically depends on some wishful thinking. Exaggerated and hypothetical promises are a way to attract the required numbers of students to actually follow through, eventually. "Leave" (opt out, vote with your feet, shop elsewhere) is really the option the market offers you, with the idea that the bad player will then go "out of business" and that only the best are left standing.

I personally don't think this is entirely working out and notoriously inflated promises are a problem all around because education "markets" fail for a number of reasons. For one, we're neither able, nor willing to "shop elsewhere" the way we'd change a grocery store if we're disappointed in the products. Also, we're notoriously ill informed about what's actually happening. At best, when kids are a little older, we can rely on them to fully inform us; but mostly we get a very partial glimpse at it. Lastly, we won't know definitively how good our kids' education was until they're in college or the workforce.

Thanks for this smart post, PP. Agreed. For the most part, changing from one high-performing DC public school to another isn't an option, even if one is prepared to tough out a tough commute. We're no more than participants in a grand and not so glorious experiment, at least outside Upper NW and a handful of rising EotP neighborhood schools.

[Anonymous]

Has OP ever given an example of what would constitute a "misrepresentation" to her?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a competitive school market place - and that's what we have in DC, public, private, charter - advertisement and promises come with the game (annual budget = number of students * per pupil allotment). Mostly, that's a good thing because schools have to market themselves, brand, convince people and prove they're worth staying and getting involved. An established school doesn't really have an interest in badly misrepresenting its core offerings. A start-up is in a different boat. Its success critically depends on some wishful thinking. Exaggerated and hypothetical promises are a way to attract the required numbers of students to actually follow through, eventually. "Leave" (opt out, vote with your feet, shop elsewhere) is really the option the market offers you, with the idea that the bad player will then go "out of business" and that only the best are left standing.

I personally don't think this is entirely working out and notoriously inflated promises are a problem all around because education "markets" fail for a number of reasons. For one, we're neither able, nor willing to "shop elsewhere" the way we'd change a grocery store if we're disappointed in the products. Also, we're notoriously ill informed about what's actually happening. At best, when kids are a little older, we can rely on them to fully inform us; but mostly we get a very partial glimpse at it. Lastly, we won't know definitively how good our kids' education was until they're in college or the workforce.

Examples, please? I mean if they are notorious then you should be able to rattle off 5 or 10 no problem?

Where is the outrage for those schools that have zero % with a PARCC 4 or 5 and still get to call themselves schools? DC Navel gazers crack me up.

With average PARCC scores...
Options PCS 0%
Tree of Life PCS 5%
Potomac Preparatory PCS 6%
Somerset Prep PCS 8%
Center City Capitol Hill PCS 8%
Democracy Prep PCS 9%
Center City Trinidad PCS 11%
Mary McLeod Bethune PCS 12%

Just starting at the bottom. I can keep going if you like.

I am outraged about DCPS that are failing, but you can't just close a bunch of neighborhood schools. Those are a basic right for families in those areas even though they aren't working well. I'm all for any good ideas to improve them. But who needs failing citywide charter schools also?

I agree, let's close them. Pretty sure none of us at HRCS would care. Of course, those Options kids have to go somewhere. Don't know if you live here and know what Options is, but (besides the horrible corruption and mismanagement) it services a very high risk population. But, hey,m send them to their by right schools. Won't impact top performing charter schools. Or JKLM, Brent or Ross where those kids don't live. But it will drag down their by right local schools.

There's no easy answers here. That's th part that is frustrating about people like you with single-minded agendas. Charters aren't the answer to everything, but neither are they they problem for everything. Every action has an impact elsewhere (butterfly flaps its wings etc.) Charter schools very successfully service many families in DC. Don't take my word for it, take the actions of families like mine who stayed in DC and are big fans of our schools. This isn't an academic argument for most of us; it is about our kids and their education. Your grand policy position BS is uninteresting and a red herring.

P.S. Can't help but notice you can't name a single "notoriously inflated promise". Which, was, after all, the point of this all before you and your little policy argument friends (as usual) tried to hijack the discussion.

To start with the last part first, I'm PP you're responding to and not OP, just a"little policy argument friend" (WTF?). I chose a DCPS for my kids, not a charter, so I don't have any first hand examples. Make sense?

To address your earlier part, I care more about policy with regards to "failing" schools because those schools are an emergency. I don't care about "dragging down by right schools". I care about educating kids as best we can. It's not a freaking competition.

Your part about "Charters aren't the answer to everything, but neither are they they problem for everything." I agree completely. Not sure why we're arguing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In a competitive school market place - and that's what we have in DC, public, private, charter - advertisement and promises come with the game (annual budget = number of students * per pupil allotment). Mostly, that's a good thing because schools have to market themselves, brand, convince people and prove they're worth staying and getting involved. An established school doesn't really have an interest in badly misrepresenting its core offerings. A start-up is in a different boat. Its success critically depends on some wishful thinking. Exaggerated and hypothetical promises are a way to attract the required numbers of students to actually follow through, eventually. "Leave" (opt out, vote with your feet, shop elsewhere) is really the option the market offers you, with the idea that the bad player will then go "out of business" and that only the best are left standing.

I personally don't think this is entirely working out and notoriously inflated promises are a problem all around because education "markets" fail for a number of reasons. For one, we're neither able, nor willing to "shop elsewhere" the way we'd change a grocery store if we're disappointed in the products. Also, we're notoriously ill informed about what's actually happening. At best, when kids are a little older, we can rely on them to fully inform us; but mostly we get a very partial glimpse at it. Lastly, we won't know definitively how good our kids' education was until they're in college or the workforce.

Examples, please? I mean if they are notorious then you should be able to rattle off 5 or 10 no problem?

Where is the outrage for those schools that have zero % with a PARCC 4 or 5 and still get to call themselves schools? DC Navel gazers crack me up.

With average PARCC scores...
Options PCS 0%
Tree of Life PCS 5%
Potomac Preparatory PCS 6%
Somerset Prep PCS 8%
Center City Capitol Hill PCS 8%
Democracy Prep PCS 9%
Center City Trinidad PCS 11%
Mary McLeod Bethune PCS 12%

Just starting at the bottom. I can keep going if you like.

I am outraged about DCPS that are failing, but you can't just close a bunch of neighborhood schools. Those are a basic right for families in those areas even though they aren't working well. I'm all for any good ideas to improve them. But who needs failing citywide charter schools also?

Options was restructured last year. Agree that there need to be alternative schools in DC for kids with serious behavior problems or else the general-enrollment schools are going to suffer.

Tree of Life is closed: http://www.dcpcsb.org/blog/tree-life-pcs-close-new-board-chair-elected

DCPCSB is trying to revoke Potomac Prep's charter: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/dc-board-moves-to-revoke-charter-for-potomac-prep/2014/11/18/051c0f76-6ed7-11e4-ad12-3734c461eab6_story.html

I don't know about all the schools on your list, but part of the situation is that DCPCSB doesn't just look at the test scores but at how kids are improving. If you have a charter middle school where 2% of kids were on grade level when they entered but 25% were when they graduated, is that school a success or a failure? How about if we compare it to the in-bounds schools the students would have attended, where only 5% are on grade level when they graduate? It's hard to say the charter is doing well, but it's also hard to say that sending the kids to their IB DCPS is a good idea either.

[Anonymous]

Having worked in a charter school in DC (won't name it), I will say that compliance concerns were major red flags that led me to leave the school ASAP. (I teach in a different state now).

I was a big charter supporter and think they can do some amazing things for kids who do not have Any.Special.Needs.Whatsoever.And.Speak.English.

The school I worked for just did not have the resources to do right by kids who were either special needs or in ESL. Having worked in other schools, I could see how these students were being short changed and it broke my heart. Charter schools do not have the resources to meet these students' needs and have an interest in pushing them back to their neighborhood school because numbers matter more than anything. But charters do one thing right -- they market the hell out of themselves. I even bought into the hype.

But here's the thing. Public schooling is a public good and it's not necessarily going to be an efficient exercise. You are going to have kids that cost way, way more educate and those kids will have worse outcomes due to external influences (disability, family, etc). It was absolute evident to me that the parents were buying something in the hopes that their kids would get a better education than the dysfunctional world that is DCPS. For high needs kids, they aren't necessarily getting it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Has OP ever given an example of what would constitute a "misrepresentation" to her?

Nope. Trolly McTroll hasn't done so. We did have one ever so helpful person dismissively allege that such inflations were notorious. But they, too, were unable to come up with an example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Misleading marketing to increase market share?

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

My wish for the new year is for people like you to explain this argument. To believe your constant flow of trolling one would need to believe that all of us in HRCS are fools who have no idea that are kids are being duped. [SIGH]

We do. You have been duped into siding with political forces that want to privatize (to either carve out little enclaves or either to earn profit from or have freedom from adhering to state guidelines or ALL THREE).

Fortunately, DC is much more aware and more active in holding charters accountable -- and becoming more so all the time -- but there is little denying what charters are in a nationwide sense.

So, yes, those of you in DC who reflexively defend charters across the board are misguided and misinformed.

No clue from what useless think tank (or Teacher Union) you are writing, but I think you may have gotten confused and wandered into the forum on DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Stop and read that again; I'll wait. "What charters are in a nationwide sense"? I do not care about any grand conspiracy or the nature of charters across the country. I care about DC, and here in DC we have some great charters that afford many of us the option to have access to schools without moving to upper NW. Your political forces and privatization garbage doesn't fly here, since most charters are run by non-profits t hat operate one or two charters, not huge corporations. Your BS about holding them more accountable also doesn't comport with reality. The DCPCSB has always held them to account and actually closes schools.

In a way, though, I should thank you for your transparency. I've wondered for some time how you and your charter-haters seem to know so very little about the DC Charters and have so little perspective on the reality of the DC schools system. Now I know; you know nothing because you know nothing. Cause the forum is DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Hoping repetition might help.

You choose to reply with...semantics?

Umm...I do not think that word means what you think it means. Your reply talked about charters nationwide, the grand policy argument behind charters and privatization and completely ignored the reality of DC charters and the fact that this is a forum specifically about DC schools. I replied by talking specifically about the DC experience and the success here.

Do you think it is semantics to call out the fact that you full of crap and worried about an academic policy argument when most of us are concerned about educating our kids, our neighborhoods and our local schools?

Calling charter schools "public" charter schools is semantics when only the funding is "public" and the charter and compliance mechanisms are buried under layer of agencies, non- profit (and, yes) for-profit entities and conflicts of interest. (though note that from the beginning, I acknowledge DC is doing better and better in this category).

Calling me "full of crap" is rhetoric.

Shall we continue, charter troll?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Misleading marketing to increase market share?

Don't hate the player. Hate the game.

My wish for the new year is for people like you to explain this argument. To believe your constant flow of trolling one would need to believe that all of us in HRCS are fools who have no idea that are kids are being duped. [SIGH]

We do. You have been duped into siding with political forces that want to privatize (to either carve out little enclaves or either to earn profit from or have freedom from adhering to state guidelines or ALL THREE).

Fortunately, DC is much more aware and more active in holding charters accountable -- and becoming more so all the time -- but there is little denying what charters are in a nationwide sense.

So, yes, those of you in DC who reflexively defend charters across the board are misguided and misinformed.

No clue from what useless think tank (or Teacher Union) you are writing, but I think you may have gotten confused and wandered into the forum on DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Stop and read that again; I'll wait. "What charters are in a nationwide sense"? I do not care about any grand conspiracy or the nature of charters across the country. I care about DC, and here in DC we have some great charters that afford many of us the option to have access to schools without moving to upper NW. Your political forces and privatization garbage doesn't fly here, since most charters are run by non-profits t hat operate one or two charters, not huge corporations. Your BS about holding them more accountable also doesn't comport with reality. The DCPCSB has always held them to account and actually closes schools.

In a way, though, I should thank you for your transparency. I've wondered for some time how you and your charter-haters seem to know so very little about the DC Charters and have so little perspective on the reality of the DC schools system. Now I know; you know nothing because you know nothing. Cause the forum is DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools DC Public and Public Charter Schools. Hoping repetition might help.

You choose to reply with...semantics?

Umm...I do not think that word means what you think it means. Your reply talked about charters nationwide, the grand policy argument behind charters and privatization and completely ignored the reality of DC charters and the fact that this is a forum specifically about DC schools. I replied by talking specifically about the DC experience and the success here.

Do you think it is semantics to call out the fact that you full of crap and worried about an academic policy argument when most of us are concerned about educating our kids, our neighborhoods and our local schools?

Calling charter schools "public" charter schools is semantics when only the funding is "public" and the charter and compliance mechanisms are buried under layer of agencies, non- profit (and, yes) for-profit entities and conflicts of interest. (though note that from the beginning, I acknowledge DC is doing better and better in this category).

Calling me "full of crap" is rhetoric.

Shall we continue, charter troll?

Seriously, I beg you, find a dictionary and look up "semantic". I assure you that you don't know what it means.

I called it a "Public Charter School" forum because that's the name of the forum, genius. What's really funny about your reply is that your feeble attempt to ignore the issue at hand and focus on the word "public" actually is an example of semantics. So while you seem not to understand semantics, you apparently have a well developed sense of irony, even if only out of ignorance.

Go back to your think tank and write a paper. This is a local forum with a focus on DC schools. The high minded public policy arguments and implementation of charters generally aren't instructive to those of us who just want to educate our kids in the system in place here in DC.