Should the Ed Reformers just quit?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that this thread is riffing off of yesterday's PARCC scores, it seems that a couple schools e.g. KIPP and DC Prep - have figured out how to get their students to do nearly as well as white, affluent students.

I think that DCPS and the rest of the charters need to go spend some time in those schools and start replicating what they are doing.

Sort of. Charters have some level of self selection to begin with. ie. A parent actually gives a crap about their kids education and looks for another option, plays lottery etc. That kid will probably do ok at most schools. The scores just tell us what everyone already knows but doesn't say out loud. Money matters. Not the money paid to teachers, not the money wasted on new HS that are at 50% capacity but the money in each kids family. The correlation is so strong that its more like causation.

[Anonymous]

No, we can't afford to give up but we may need to be more honest with ourselves about what is required.

-Poverty deeply impacts educational opportunity this is not an excuse must be addressed

-Segregation deeply affects educational attainment- schools that are more mixed even help poor children. Well off folks might have to let some percentage into their closed neighborhoods (See point above, you can't have one without the other)

-Teachers are not the enemy, we all know some are crappy but that exists even in expensive privates. We need to ask them what can help and make a difference

I say the above now after 10 years in DCPS part of that time with children in a title one school and part in a ward 3 school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No, we can't afford to give up but we may need to be more honest with ourselves about what is required.

-Poverty deeply impacts educational opportunity this is not an excuse must be addressed

-Segregation deeply affects educational attainment- schools that are more mixed even help poor children. Well off folks might have to let some percentage into their closed neighborhoods (See point above, you can't have one without the other)

-Teachers are not the enemy, we all know some are crappy but that exists even in expensive privates. We need to ask them what can help and make a difference

I say the above now after 10 years in DCPS part of that time with children in a title one school and part in a ward 3 school.

If you've worked in a ward 3 school, you know that this is already the case. Those neighborhoods are not "closed"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, we can't afford to give up but we may need to be more honest with ourselves about what is required.

-Poverty deeply impacts educational opportunity this is not an excuse must be addressed

-Segregation deeply affects educational attainment- schools that are more mixed even help poor children. Well off folks might have to let some percentage into their closed neighborhoods (See point above, you can't have one without the other)

-Teachers are not the enemy, we all know some are crappy but that exists even in expensive privates. We need to ask them what can help and make a difference

I say the above now after 10 years in DCPS part of that time with children in a title one school and part in a ward 3 school.

If you've worked in a ward 3 school, you know that this is already the case. Those neighborhoods are not "closed"

I mean in terms of affordable housing. I don't work in Ward 3 my kids attend a school there. With the exception of Hearst and Eaton which actually do what I am proposing most other schools that have high success rates have very few poor children.

[Anonymous]

DC Prep is hardcore test-prep drill and kill instruction. No recess, no talking during lunch, etc. Yes, you get kids to pass tests, but at a super-high cost that doesn't lead to success in the college or world of work because it's so regimented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC Prep is hardcore test-prep drill and kill instruction. No recess, no talking during lunch, etc. Yes, you get kids to pass tests, but at a super-high cost that doesn't lead to success in the college or world of work because it's so regimented.

As opposed to the great successes that come out of Ballou and Aiton ES.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC Prep is hardcore test-prep drill and kill instruction. No recess, no talking during lunch, etc. Yes, you get kids to pass tests, but at a super-high cost that doesn't lead to success in the college or world of work because it's so regimented.

Proof?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that this thread is riffing off of yesterday's PARCC scores, it seems that a couple schools e.g. KIPP and DC Prep - have figured out how to get their students to do nearly as well as white, affluent students.

I think that DCPS and the rest of the charters need to go spend some time in those schools and start replicating what they are doing.

You are joking right????? Dear God in Heaven I hope so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that this thread is riffing off of yesterday's PARCC scores, it seems that a couple schools e.g. KIPP and DC Prep - have figured out how to get their students to do nearly as well as white, affluent students.

I think that DCPS and the rest of the charters need to go spend some time in those schools and start replicating what they are doing.

What they are doing is selecting the "best" students from the most functional families (not all poor black families are the same). In order to go to KIPP, parents need the resources and the wherewithal to apply their kid to the lottery and to manage the transportation issues. They then must sign a pledge to commit to a certain number of parent participation hours. Then they also need to get their kid to school for frequent Saturday hours. All of these things are not possible for the most dysfunctional families, who are then concentrated in schools like Turner and Motten, with less than 5% proficiency rates.

At the middle and high school level, where kids from dysfunctional families need so much more -- in terms of social workers and guidance counselors -- the fact that their peers from more functional families are going to charters and OOB leaves the school less money for non-classroom staff.

Well, I'm happy for those "best" students from the most functional [poor black] families because if it weren't for KIPP they too would be languishing and failing at the 5% schools. There needs to be a completely different model for what you term as the "most dysfunctional families." Something that is targeted to their extreme need. I'm no educator and I don't know what that model looks like, but slamming schools like KIPP (and in doing so, the families that attend there) for the amazing strides they've made is counterproductive.

I don't see where pp slammed KiPP - the message is that something like that should be accessible to students with less parental support

Maybe not slammed but dismissed it out of hand by saying that it attracts motivated students. Extended school days and Saturday school probably needs to be part of the solution and, to her credit, Chancellor has been trying to implement that for the last few years. But the WTU and higher SES parents are making it very difficult, if not impossible.

Haven't some DCPS schools already piloted extended school days? Which schools were those and how do their scores compare to the scores of students at schools without extended days with similar demographics?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that this thread is riffing off of yesterday's PARCC scores, it seems that a couple schools e.g. KIPP and DC Prep - have figured out how to get their students to do nearly as well as white, affluent students.

I think that DCPS and the rest of the charters need to go spend some time in those schools and start replicating what they are doing.

What they are doing is selecting the "best" students from the most functional families (not all poor black families are the same). In order to go to KIPP, parents need the resources and the wherewithal to apply their kid to the lottery and to manage the transportation issues. They then must sign a pledge to commit to a certain number of parent participation hours. Then they also need to get their kid to school for frequent Saturday hours. All of these things are not possible for the most dysfunctional families, who are then concentrated in schools like Turner and Motten, with less than 5% proficiency rates.

At the middle and high school level, where kids from dysfunctional families need so much more -- in terms of social workers and guidance counselors -- the fact that their peers from more functional families are going to charters and OOB leaves the school less money for non-classroom staff.

Well, I'm happy for those "best" students from the most functional [poor black] families because if it weren't for KIPP they too would be languishing and failing at the 5% schools. There needs to be a completely different model for what you term as the "most dysfunctional families." Something that is targeted to their extreme need. I'm no educator and I don't know what that model looks like, but slamming schools like KIPP (and in doing so, the families that attend there) for the amazing strides they've made is counterproductive.

I don't see where pp slammed KiPP - the message is that something like that should be accessible to students with less parental support

Maybe not slammed but dismissed it out of hand by saying that it attracts motivated students. Extended school days and Saturday school probably needs to be part of the solution and, to her credit, Chancellor has been trying to implement that for the last few years. But the WTU and higher SES parents are making it very difficult, if not impossible.

I think one of the District education leaders' biggest mistakes is this idea that every "solution" must be applied across the board. Higher SES parents (like me) are against an extended school day and Saturday school for my children because they do not need it. Their school is already succeeding in providing what they are supposed to in terms of academic education in the time that we already entrust with them. What my children need after 3:15 and on the weekends is the quality, enrichment time they get with their family by preparing and eating meals together while talking about our day, going over homework, going on trips, visiting museums, doing chores to learn responsibility, etc. Extending the school day (year or week) might be a great solution for at-risk children whose home life challenges are immense and every hour away from that environment is a plus. But I certainly do not trust that DCPS would take additional hours of my child's life and do more with it than my husband and I would already do. We have to recognize that solutions can't be one size fits all, they need to take into account what problems they are actually trying to solve.

EXACTLY, this is what DCPS refuses to acknowledge. Hence teachers are fired because the children in their class can't make AYP not acknowledging that they are years and years behind, so it is impossible for a teacher to make that level of growth. Teacher in WOTP were awarded high bonuses for teaching kids who were already or near proficient, the constant churn and burn of teachers, principals, and other personnel at other school just to make it seem like something construcutive was happening, when really as PP states DCPS just needs to admit that not all children/schools need the same thing. The only reason people criticize charters if beacause they claim the same thing rather than admitting that what they do works for a certain type of student, you cannot compare what happens at Charters with a DCPS that has to take all incomers. Some EOTP schools are almost now solely filled with students who are ESL, Special Education, or those with behavior issues, if that is the case then admit and provide the schools with the resource to teach that set of students. Provide after-school, enrichment, extended day and other opportunities to those that need it.

[Anonymous]

When educators in this city wax enthusiastic about closing the achievement gap, I think in terms of growing crops on the moon. Theoretically possible, but so unlikely to happen in my lifetime that the project probably isn't worth planning for, or significant outlays.

Why can't ed reformers speak, and plan, in terms of narrowing the gap a little and leave it at that? I'd cheer for them if they were promoting far more vocational training/credentialing of MS and HS students nationwide. Germany does that brilliantly. Why force algebra on all the DCPS 9th graders who didn't pass the subject in middle school? These are thousands of kids who aren't very interested in the subject, or likely to pass it, motivating them to give up and drop out of high school. Great.

Couldn't the kids at risk of dropping out study subjects they like, and are good at, instead, with work experience in the mix?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Nah. We just need more highly-paid consultants to study why their less-highly paid peers weren't able to fix societal issues by firing teachers and diverting half of DC students to underperforming charter schools.

Except that the charters are outperforming DCPS. So, maybe that's part of the solution.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When educators in this city wax enthusiastic about closing the achievement gap, I think in terms of growing crops on the moon. Theoretically possible, but so unlikely to happen in my lifetime that the project probably isn't worth planning for, or significant outlays.

Why can't ed reformers speak, and plan, in terms of narrowing the gap a little and leave it at that? I'd cheer for them if they were promoting far more vocational training/credentialing of MS and HS students nationwide. Germany does that brilliantly. Why force algebra on all the DCPS 9th graders who didn't pass the subject in middle school? These are thousands of kids who aren't very interested in the subject, or likely to pass it, motivating them to give up and drop out of high school. Great.

Couldn't the kids at risk of dropping out study subjects they like, and are good at, instead, with work experience in the mix?

This is going to sound like snark, and it, is but it's also true.

The world has enough art & angry studies majors, college loans are a yoke, and you can't outsource plumbing. Connect the dots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that this thread is riffing off of yesterday's PARCC scores, it seems that a couple schools e.g. KIPP and DC Prep - have figured out how to get their students to do nearly as well as white, affluent students.

I think that DCPS and the rest of the charters need to go spend some time in those schools and start replicating what they are doing.

You are joking right????? Dear God in Heaven I hope so.

Strange. I hope she's serious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Assuming that this thread is riffing off of yesterday's PARCC scores, it seems that a couple schools e.g. KIPP and DC Prep - have figured out how to get their students to do nearly as well as white, affluent students.

I think that DCPS and the rest of the charters need to go spend some time in those schools and start replicating what they are doing.

Sort of. Charters have some level of self selection to begin with. ie. A parent actually gives a crap about their kids education and looks for another option, plays lottery etc. That kid will probably do ok at most schools. The scores just tell us what everyone already knows but doesn't say out loud. Money matters. Not the money paid to teachers, not the money wasted on new HS that are at 50% capacity but the money in each kids family. The correlation is so strong that its more like causation.

Except when you look at the performance of students at KIPP, DC Prep, and SEED it's clearly NOT TRUE.