S/o (VA public schools). IB and college preparedness

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is IB only at the lower-SES high schools? That alone makes me suspicious of it.

It isn't. In fairfax county, it is at Marshall, Robinson, and South Lakes, none of which are low SES school. The program is also in place at a couple other schools which are low SES, but this is definitely not an "only" situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why is IB only at the lower-SES high schools? That alone makes me suspicious of it.


It isn't. In fairfax county, it is at Marshall, Robinson, and South Lakes, none of which are low SES school. The program is also in place at a couple other schools which are low SES, but this is definitely not an "only" situation.

Look at the poorest schools in the county. Look at the wealthiest. Do you see a theme? IB would have been adopted en mass if it had value. I mean, have you seen the AAP forums? Fairfax parents with money will take any edge. It's the poor schools, like Lee and Mount Vernon and Edison and Annadale and Jeb Stuart that are all stuck with this crap.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why is IB only at the lower-SES high schools? That alone makes me suspicious of it.

IB was implemented badly in FCPS. It was thought it would be huge draw for smart high SES kids. It was put in low SES schools to draw high SES pupils in, and raise the standarDS in low performers. Which was not fully successful-- maybe because there are too many IB schools, maybe because they don't provide transportation, and maybe because parents who buy in high SES districts do not want their kids to downgrade schools. Probably a combo of all three. I'm the OP on this tread (looking at South Lakes in particular) and don't want to get into an is it worth the cost debate-- there's a current IB thread on this in that VA public schools. But it would probably be a huge success in FCPS if it was put in middle of the road schools in 2-3 different areas of the county, with a competitive admissions process (like TJ & AAP: FCPS parents love to compete). And if transportation was provided. In other words, I don't think it's the quality of the program as much as a poor implementation plan. In other areas, it's considered to be a very prestigious program (see Montgomery County).

Thanks so much to everyone with details on substance of the program. This is very helpful since I have an all around good student making straight As in Carson AAP, but with more interest in English and history than science and math. He's also a strong writer, so it seems like this would be a good fit.

I do have several more questions:

does anyone have an ADHD kid who was in the IB program (Symptoms fairly well controlled on meds, but needs small accommodations in 504). How did that go?

Has anyone had any experience with South Lakes IB in particular? How does the math sequencing work? DC is currently in Geometry honors for 8th grade, where does he end up? Math HL in 10th-11 Or 11-12? Does math HL cover topics more advanced than calculus BC?

DS plays an instrument. If he sticks with it, can he be in band or orchestra and end up with a fine arts IB credit? How do fine arts performancE IB a credits work?

There aren't really answers to these questions on the FCPS a website. TIA

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But AP lets you be great at some things and only OK at other things, right? Whereas IB you have to be great at everything?

IB is essentially like taking two full years of AP only courses. A student who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. However, just like with AP, the student can pick and choose some IB courses without going for the full diploma.

Some of the IB diploma candidates I met definitely could not handle a schedule of AP-only courses. Some IB courses are not particularly rigorous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But AP lets you be great at some things and only OK at other things, right? Whereas IB you have to be great at everything?

IB is essentially like taking two full years of AP only courses. A student who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. However, just like with AP, the student can pick and choose some IB courses without going for the full diploma.

Some of the IB diploma candidates I met definitely could not handle a schedule of AP-only courses. Some IB courses are not particularly rigorous.

I have heard the exact opposite. People seem to want their kids to do AP instead of Ib because it's easier and less work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But AP lets you be great at some things and only OK at other things, right? Whereas IB you have to be great at everything?

IB is essentially like taking two full years of AP only courses. A student who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. However, just like with AP, the student can pick and choose some IB courses without going for the full diploma.

Some of the IB diploma candidates I met definitely could not handle a schedule of AP-only courses. Some IB courses are not particularly rigorous.

I have heard the exact opposite. People seem to want their kids to do AP instead of Ib because it's easier and less work.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But AP lets you be great at some things and only OK at other things, right? Whereas IB you have to be great at everything?

IB is essentially like taking two full years of AP only courses. A student who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. However, just like with AP, the student can pick and choose some IB courses without going for the full diploma.

Some of the IB diploma candidates I met definitely could not handle a schedule of AP-only courses. Some IB courses are not particularly rigorous.

I have heard the exact opposite. People seem to want their kids to do AP instead of Ib because it's easier and less work.

If your criteria for selecting a program involve "easier and less work" then IB may not be the right path for your Dc. Well implemented IB takes a lot of work but, IMHO, it is well worth the effort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But AP lets you be great at some things and only OK at other things, right? Whereas IB you have to be great at everything?

IB is essentially like taking two full years of AP only courses. A student who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. However, just like with AP, the student can pick and choose some IB courses without going for the full diploma.

Some of the IB diploma candidates I met definitely could not handle a schedule of AP-only courses. Some IB courses are not particularly rigorous.

I have heard the exact opposite. People seem to want their kids to do AP instead of Ib because it's easier and less work.

This is what I still don't understand. Taking half AP courses, the benefit is obvious. But talking (only) half IB courses, what benefit? Seems like IB is all or nothing.

[Anonymous]

Interesting and very perceptive post from a parent on another forum:

"Here is my own personal experience with the AP/IB issue. My oldest son went with AP at James Madison HS in Vienna and he and I both believe it made the transition to college much easier. He is a second year student now, and he is integrated with other AP and IB kids. The IB kids at his college had a much harder time with both the quantity of the material required for certain classes as well as the "gaps" in their exposure in the subject matter taught, as you pointed out. My son did not experience either issue. He also did not experience the disjointedness between subjects in the AP environment. He also is not math/science focused, although he did take 2 science AP classes along with the History, English and Psychology AP's that he loved. I think the quality of the teachers he had in high school was outstanding and had alot to do with how the material was taught to the students, as well as being a huge contributing factor to the success of the AP program at his school. Most of his AP classes had a class participation requirement as part of his grade, just like in college. Again, I believe that due to the quality of his teachers, he was able to make connections between one course and another, and his critical thinking skills were enhanced. He was more than ready for college. He received alot of college credit and could pretty much satisfy the requirements for a history major at the end of his first year. I think the bottom line is that you need to know your student and how he/she learns best. As a parent, you also need to evaluate the quality of the AP and IB programs offered at your high school. Some are better/worse than others."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But AP lets you be great at some things and only OK at other things, right? Whereas IB you have to be great at everything?

IB is essentially like taking two full years of AP only courses. A student who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. However, just like with AP, the student can pick and choose some IB courses without going for the full diploma.

Some of the IB diploma candidates I met definitely could not handle a schedule of AP-only courses. Some IB courses are not particularly rigorous.

I have heard the exact opposite. People seem to want their kids to do AP instead of Ib because it's easier and less work.

Not so. In any event, it's ridiculous to suggest that only kids who could handle AP in every subject would be able to handle the full IB diploma. The IB analog to a student taking all AP courses would be IB students taking all IB HL courses. That isn't required, and IB diploma students often take multiple SL courses as permitted under the IBO rules.

When I hear such nonsense, it makes me think IB exists only so that small groups of IB diploma candidates and their parents can try to mislead others into thinking their kids have been in some elite, academic "boot camp." It does nothing for most students at IB schools, and the amount of disinformation about IB is staggering. But as long as the IBO has marketing materials that suggest IB will help students to become "global citizens" who have learned "how to think" (presumably, this means how to approach an assignment, not what they should believe), some people who think their kids might not do well in AP-level math and science courses will jump on board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what I still don't understand. Taking half AP courses, the benefit is obvious. But talking (only) half IB courses, what benefit? Seems like IB is all or nothing.

I'm not following your logic. Taking SOME AP courses is equivalent to taking SOME IB courses. They are both advanced coursework. Students in an IB school do NOT have to get the full IB diploma - they can take IB courses a la carte.

If you feel that the advantage to taking a single AP class is college credit:

1. AP credit is not always accepted in college
2. IB credit credit can be given at college in the same way AP credit can
3. IB students can still take AP exams if they feel that the AP credit is more likely to be accepted at a school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not following your logic. Taking SOME AP courses is equivalent to taking SOME IB courses. They are both advanced coursework. Students in an IB school do NOT have to get the full IB diploma - they can take IB courses a la carte.

If you feel that the advantage to taking a single AP class is college credit:

1. AP credit is not always accepted in college
2. IB credit credit can be given at college in the same way AP credit can
3. IB students can still take AP exams if they feel that the AP credit is more likely to be accepted at a school

Different poster here, but I think some of the skepticism arises from the fact that IB proponents sometimes suggest that the IB program is a well-designed sequence of inter-connected courses that, taken together, help students learn "how to think" and prepare them for college-level classes. But, when someone points out that few students at IB high schools in FCPS actually pursue or receive IB diplomas, the immediate response is that individual IB classes are just as valuable as AP classes taken "a la carte."

To which the response is two-fold: (1) if the full diploma program were as beneficial as claimed, you'd expect to see greater enthusiasm and demand for IB, both within existing IB schools and at AP schools that don't offer IB; and (2) if IB is really just the same thing as AP, why bother incurring the additional expense associated with IB, such as dedicated IB coordinators at individual schools. If feels like a game of "whack-a-mole" that avoids the ultimate question as to why not just go with AP. Yes, IB students can sign up for AP exams without having taken AP classes, but they have to prepare for those exams on their own - and we're told that the IB diploma is so rigorous that you'd wonder when students would ever find time to study for an AP exam.

[Anonymous]

Some of us really don't care whether our children take AP exams. No interest in having my high school aged children try to complete college work, or get college level credit, in high school. None. Not because we're rich and can pay infinitely for college and not because they're not highly capable. I want my children to leave high school as good writers, good mathematicians, analytical thinkers, inquiring scientists, respected team members in sports for which they will never be recruited but enjoy doing, community minded, and internally motivated to further their education. It would be really great if they attracted some merit money for college, but that's still a big unknown.This is what I'm hoping they'll get from pursuing an IB diploma. I hope along the way, they won't have to give it up due to poor implementation of the program. I don't feel like they're missing anything by not being at an AP school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not following your logic. Taking SOME AP courses is equivalent to taking SOME IB courses. They are both advanced coursework. Students in an IB school do NOT have to get the full IB diploma - they can take IB courses a la carte.

If you feel that the advantage to taking a single AP class is college credit:

1. AP credit is not always accepted in college
2. IB credit credit can be given at college in the same way AP credit can
3. IB students can still take AP exams if they feel that the AP credit is more likely to be accepted at a school

Different poster here, but I think some of the skepticism arises from the fact that IB proponents sometimes suggest that the IB program is a well-designed sequence of inter-connected courses that, taken together, help students learn "how to think" and prepare them for college-level classes. But, when someone points out that few students at IB high schools in FCPS actually pursue or receive IB diplomas, the immediate response is that individual IB classes are just as valuable as AP classes taken "a la carte."

To which the response is two-fold: (1) if the full diploma program were as beneficial as claimed, you'd expect to see greater enthusiasm and demand for IB, both within existing IB schools and at AP schools that don't offer IB; and (2) if IB is really just the same thing as AP, why bother incurring the additional expense associated with IB, such as dedicated IB coordinators at individual schools. If feels like a game of "whack-a-mole" that avoids the ultimate question as to why not just go with AP. Yes, IB students can sign up for AP exams without having taken AP classes, but they have to prepare for those exams on their own - and we're told that the IB diploma is so rigorous that you'd wonder when students would ever find time to study for an AP exam.

The full diploma seems very beneficial. But, lots of kids can't do it. You must: take and pass an exam in a 2 year class in: a 4th & 5th year foreign language; BC calculus level math, a science, a history, English, and one elective (some electives are only one year, like psychology). 3-4 of these must be at HL, generally though more rigorous than AP. That's the equivalent of 11-12 AP classes. Plus take a 2 semester theory of knowledge class (lots of kids take it in the evening because they don't have room in their schedule), conduct independent research and write a 4000 word paper, and complete 150 extra hours in service (50 hours), performance/arts (50 hours) and action/sports (50 hours). You also have to take an approaches to learning seminar. Almost all of this is done junior and senior years. If you miss one element you're not a diploma candidate. So yeah, lots of students do the program a la carte, because they can't or don't want to meet the requirements. But for those who get through successfully, it's a big accomplishment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I'm not following your logic. Taking SOME AP courses is equivalent to taking SOME IB courses. They are both advanced coursework. Students in an IB school do NOT have to get the full IB diploma - they can take IB courses a la carte.

If you feel that the advantage to taking a single AP class is college credit:

1. AP credit is not always accepted in college
2. IB credit credit can be given at college in the same way AP credit can
3. IB students can still take AP exams if they feel that the AP credit is more likely to be accepted at a school

Different poster here, but I think some of the skepticism arises from the fact that IB proponents sometimes suggest that the IB program is a well-designed sequence of inter-connected courses that, taken together, help students learn "how to think" and prepare them for college-level classes. But, when someone points out that few students at IB high schools in FCPS actually pursue or receive IB diplomas, the immediate response is that individual IB classes are just as valuable as AP classes taken "a la carte."

To which the response is two-fold: (1) if the full diploma program were as beneficial as claimed, you'd expect to see greater enthusiasm and demand for IB, both within existing IB schools and at AP schools that don't offer IB; and (2) if IB is really just the same thing as AP, why bother incurring the additional expense associated with IB, such as dedicated IB coordinators at individual schools. If feels like a game of "whack-a-mole" that avoids the ultimate question as to why not just go with AP. Yes, IB students can sign up for AP exams without having taken AP classes, but they have to prepare for those exams on their own - and we're told that the IB diploma is so rigorous that you'd wonder when students would ever find time to study for an AP exam.

The full diploma seems very beneficial. But, lots of kids can't do it. You must: take and pass an exam in a 2 year class in: a 4th & 5th year foreign language; BC calculus level math, a science, a history, English, and one elective (some electives are only one year, like psychology). 3-4 of these must be at HL, generally though more rigorous than AP. That's the equivalent of 11-12 AP classes. Plus take a 2 semester theory of knowledge class (lots of kids take it in the evening because they don't have room in their schedule), conduct independent research and write a 4000 word paper, and complete 150 extra hours in service (50 hours), performance/arts (50 hours) and action/sports (50 hours). You also have to take an approaches to learning seminar. Almost all of this is done junior and senior years. If you miss one element you're not a diploma candidate. So yeah, lots of students do the program a la carte, because they can't or don't want to meet the requirements. But for those who get through successfully, it's a big accomplishment.

If you are interested in IB D program, take a look at school's IB Diploma percentage rate. It's a good indicator of how successful kids will be.