What can I expect here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:


I know DH is on the books -- and will be for life even if he actively joins another church. I'm talking about the daughter -- that's who the Church is after and you can't blame them for seeing the possibility when the father is coming back to the church.

And OF COURSE priests and any other clergy feel pressure to add people to the books. People are leaving organized religion in droves. Anyone who is coming back, as DH appears to be doing, is going to be welcomed with open arms and expected to enroll his children.

We're not leaving organized religion. I'm quite possibly more devout than DH.

And our daughter will NOT be raised Catholic. If she chooses later on, I can't stop that, but I won't introduce her to it beyond her father being Catholic.

(for the PP who mentioned it, no - we did not have a Catholic wedding)

OP has made her and her husband's intentions quite clear. They are fine, generally speaking, but not so fine as far as the Catholic church, which DH apparently just rejoined, is concerned. He IS breaking the rules of HIS church by not raising his daughter catholic.

As for "organized religion" it's not a dirty word, it's a description for churches that have a hierarchy and rules and doctrine. If this family were spiritual and did not want to affiliate with a church, none of this would matter, but they have chosen to affiliate with 2 different churches with different sets of rules and way of looking at how children should be taught religion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused. Why not just preach the Gospel? Why enforce these silly, manmade rules?

All organized religions have rules, as do lots of other non-religious groups -- it's how people operate in groups. Even the Gospel is full of rules.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH is in an "invalid marriage" though. Surely the priest will ask and push convalidation? Or not?

DH is not in an invalid marriage; rather, he is not in a Catholic marriage.

A priest might raise this privately with DH. However, upon learning that OP is not willing to have a Catholic marriage or to raise DD as a Catholic, the priest would drop the matter. Priests are not in the business of creating unnecessary marital strife; ensuring a marriage with children stays intact would be the highest good here.

Again, I think the comparison of DH with a Protestant who converted without his family is instructive.

A priest told us we were invalidly married once - "defect of form".

[Anonymous]

He is not breaking any "rules." If he is, I'd like to know the cite. As I've said several times, he never made a commitment to raise DD Catholic so there is not even a commitment he failed to honor.

DH was baptized Catholic, drifted away from the church, got married, had a child, and now is interested in going back to the church. Stuff happens, and people do the best they can. No priest is going to tell him to stop going to church until he convinces unwilling DW to get married in the Catholic church and commit to raise DD Catholic over DW's objections.

Give the church some credit for common sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unclear that any of the posters here have met a Catholic priest. It will depend very much on the priest, but as a general matter Catholic priests are not terribly evangelizing. He wants to meet DH's family to serve DH better. He will not use this meeting to try to evangelize OP or convince DH to raise DD Catholic. He is smart enough to know that if he does either of those things, DH will lose his fragile hold on his faith.

OP has nothing to be concerned about.

Correct, Catholic priests do not evangelize, they just tell you what the rules are and the consequences if you don't follow them. Some priests are more subtle than others but they all know what their responsibilities are to their bishop and to the Vatican. If DH won't raise his daughter Catholic, he cannot receive the sacraments -- e.g. can't go to communion -- If he tries, the priest is obliged to pass him by at the communion rail. There are some priests who ignore this rule, if they can get away with it, and perhaps DH doesn't want to go to communion anyway.

PS - I have met plenty of Catholic priests over the years.

I absolutely cannot imagine any priest with any sense using this meeting as a reason to beat DH or anyone else over the head about raising his DD as Catholic.

I also am pretty sure the "rule" as you put it does not apply in this case as it is highly likely OP and DH did not get married in the Catholic church, in which case he would have made a commitment to raise any children Catholic. I imagine, however, OP would have said that if they married in the Catholic church if that were the case.

Most priests understand that religious faith is a process and a journey, not an on off switch.

Catholic priests almost never evangelize because they are still employed by the church even if their particular parish is not thriving. They do not need to look for bodies to fill the pews and the collection plates.

You are missing the point -- it's not evangelizing; it's enforcing the rules. It's not a simple matter of filling the pews; it's having another soul "on the books" as a Catholic.

Sorry to disagree.

As I pointed out there is no rule applicable to DD as DH and OP did not have a Catholic marriage.

DH was baptized so he is already on the books. The priest won't be adding another one by helping his re-entrance to the church. Also, individual priest feel absolutely no responsibility or pressure to add more people to the books.

At this point the Catholic church could care less about the protestant wedding. the issue now is a practicing Catholic dad with a protestant child. He cannot be a Catholic in good standing while insisting that he raise his child protestant. They will let him come to church, they'll be happy to take his money, but he can't receive the sacraments. If he's OK with that, then there's no problem, except for occasional nudging from the priest to have his daughter baptized in the church and to attend CCD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH is in an "invalid marriage" though. Surely the priest will ask and push convalidation? Or not?

DH is not in an invalid marriage; rather, he is not in a Catholic marriage.

A priest might raise this privately with DH. However, upon learning that OP is not willing to have a Catholic marriage or to raise DD as a Catholic, the priest would drop the matter. Priests are not in the business of creating unnecessary marital strife; ensuring a marriage with children stays intact would be the highest good here.

Again, I think the comparison of DH with a Protestant who converted without his family is instructive.

A priest told us we were invalidly married once - "defect of form".

A Catholic marriage can be invalid for a number of reasons, as can a civil marriage. That is what annulment is for in both civil and religious courts. For example, one of the parties may have been underage.

But a civil marriage that met all the requirements under civil law is a valid marriage. DH's civil marriage to OP is not invalid (at least as far as we know); it is simply not a Catholic marriage. To say a non-Catholic marriage is not a valid Catholic marriage is redundant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unclear that any of the posters here have met a Catholic priest. It will depend very much on the priest, but as a general matter Catholic priests are not terribly evangelizing. He wants to meet DH's family to serve DH better. He will not use this meeting to try to evangelize OP or convince DH to raise DD Catholic. He is smart enough to know that if he does either of those things, DH will lose his fragile hold on his faith.

OP has nothing to be concerned about.

Correct, Catholic priests do not evangelize, they just tell you what the rules are and the consequences if you don't follow them. Some priests are more subtle than others but they all know what their responsibilities are to their bishop and to the Vatican. If DH won't raise his daughter Catholic, he cannot receive the sacraments -- e.g. can't go to communion -- If he tries, the priest is obliged to pass him by at the communion rail. There are some priests who ignore this rule, if they can get away with it, and perhaps DH doesn't want to go to communion anyway.

PS - I have met plenty of Catholic priests over the years.

I absolutely cannot imagine any priest with any sense using this meeting as a reason to beat DH or anyone else over the head about raising his DD as Catholic.

I also am pretty sure the "rule" as you put it does not apply in this case as it is highly likely OP and DH did not get married in the Catholic church, in which case he would have made a commitment to raise any children Catholic. I imagine, however, OP would have said that if they married in the Catholic church if that were the case.

Most priests understand that religious faith is a process and a journey, not an on off switch.

Catholic priests almost never evangelize because they are still employed by the church even if their particular parish is not thriving. They do not need to look for bodies to fill the pews and the collection plates.

You are missing the point -- it's not evangelizing; it's enforcing the rules. It's not a simple matter of filling the pews; it's having another soul "on the books" as a Catholic.

Sorry to disagree.

As I pointed out there is no rule applicable to DD as DH and OP did not have a Catholic marriage.

DH was baptized so he is already on the books. The priest won't be adding another one by helping his re-entrance to the church. Also, individual priest feel absolutely no responsibility or pressure to add more people to the books.

At this point the Catholic church could care less about the protestant wedding. the issue now is a practicing Catholic dad with a protestant child. He cannot be a Catholic in good standing while insisting that he raise his child protestant. They will let him come to church, they'll be happy to take his money, but he can't receive the sacraments. If he's OK with that, then there's no problem, except for occasional nudging from the priest to have his daughter baptized in the church and to attend CCD.

No it is not the issue. He did not make a commitment to raise the child Catholic. And if anyone has read OP's statements, it is very clear from her tone that any suggestions that the child be raised Catholic would be met with extreme hostility on her part in a way that would threaten the marriage. As I said, the church exercises common sense in these situations and would not recommend that DH do anything in any way to undermine his marriage, particularly where a child is involved.

[Anonymous]

????

If OP and her DH were married outside the RCC without dispensation, it most certainly is an invalid marriage and convalidation is require for him to receive the sacraments. BTDT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH is in an "invalid marriage" though. Surely the priest will ask and push convalidation? Or not?

DH is not in an invalid marriage; rather, he is not in a Catholic marriage.

A priest might raise this privately with DH. However, upon learning that OP is not willing to have a Catholic marriage or to raise DD as a Catholic, the priest would drop the matter. Priests are not in the business of creating unnecessary marital strife; ensuring a marriage with children stays intact would be the highest good here.

Again, I think the comparison of DH with a Protestant who converted without his family is instructive.

I agree with all of this. The priest is not going to drive a wedge into DH's marriage to get "more people on the books."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unclear that any of the posters here have met a Catholic priest. It will depend very much on the priest, but as a general matter Catholic priests are not terribly evangelizing. He wants to meet DH's family to serve DH better. He will not use this meeting to try to evangelize OP or convince DH to raise DD Catholic. He is smart enough to know that if he does either of those things, DH will lose his fragile hold on his faith.

OP has nothing to be concerned about.

Correct, Catholic priests do not evangelize, they just tell you what the rules are and the consequences if you don't follow them. Some priests are more subtle than others but they all know what their responsibilities are to their bishop and to the Vatican. If DH won't raise his daughter Catholic, he cannot receive the sacraments -- e.g. can't go to communion -- If he tries, the priest is obliged to pass him by at the communion rail. There are some priests who ignore this rule, if they can get away with it, and perhaps DH doesn't want to go to communion anyway.

PS - I have met plenty of Catholic priests over the years.

I absolutely cannot imagine any priest with any sense using this meeting as a reason to beat DH or anyone else over the head about raising his DD as Catholic.

I also am pretty sure the "rule" as you put it does not apply in this case as it is highly likely OP and DH did not get married in the Catholic church, in which case he would have made a commitment to raise any children Catholic. I imagine, however, OP would have said that if they married in the Catholic church if that were the case.

Most priests understand that religious faith is a process and a journey, not an on off switch.

Catholic priests almost never evangelize because they are still employed by the church even if their particular parish is not thriving. They do not need to look for bodies to fill the pews and the collection plates.

You are missing the point -- it's not evangelizing; it's enforcing the rules. It's not a simple matter of filling the pews; it's having another soul "on the books" as a Catholic.

Sorry to disagree.

As I pointed out there is no rule applicable to DD as DH and OP did not have a Catholic marriage.

DH was baptized so he is already on the books. The priest won't be adding another one by helping his re-entrance to the church. Also, individual priest feel absolutely no responsibility or pressure to add more people to the books.

At this point the Catholic church could care less about the protestant wedding. the issue now is a practicing Catholic dad with a protestant child. He cannot be a Catholic in good standing while insisting that he raise his child protestant. They will let him come to church, they'll be happy to take his money, but he can't receive the sacraments. If he's OK with that, then there's no problem, except for occasional nudging from the priest to have his daughter baptized in the church and to attend CCD.

This is not true. Dh could still be a Catholic in good standing if OP insists that DD not be raised Catholic. At that point it is not in DH's power to force DD to be raised Catholic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH is in an "invalid marriage" though. Surely the priest will ask and push convalidation? Or not?

DH is not in an invalid marriage; rather, he is not in a Catholic marriage.

A priest might raise this privately with DH. However, upon learning that OP is not willing to have a Catholic marriage or to raise DD as a Catholic, the priest would drop the matter. Priests are not in the business of creating unnecessary marital strife; ensuring a marriage with children stays intact would be the highest good here.

Again, I think the comparison of DH with a Protestant who converted without his family is instructive.

I agree with all of this. The priest is not going to drive a wedge into DH's marriage to get "more people on the books."

No the priest will not antagonistically "drive a wedge" into the marriage but I'll be shocked if DH is allowed to receive the sacraments and if the priest doesn't ask DH to have the daughter baptized and involved in the church. Technically, you can't receive the sacraments if they know you are pro-choice, but that's harder to enforce. Remember when Kerry was turned away from communion during the presidential elections?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

No the priest will not antagonistically "drive a wedge" into the marriage but I'll be shocked if DH is allowed to receive the sacraments and if the priest doesn't ask DH to have the daughter baptized and involved in the church. Technically, you can't receive the sacraments if they know you are pro-choice, but that's harder to enforce. Remember when Kerry was turned away from communion during the presidential elections?

OP here. DD is baptized and the Catholic Church accepts her baptism. I don't believe they will deny him over her at all, since Catholics are only supposed to promise to do everything in their power to raise the child Catholic. Whatever that means. I guess he was supposed to disconnect my car battery to prevent me from having her baptized in a Lutheran church, or something.

They do not, however, accept our marriage as valid and PP is correct, they are supposed to deny him the sacraments, as he is "living in sin". I highly doubt he is planning on telling this priest we're in an invalid marriage, though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No the priest will not antagonistically "drive a wedge" into the marriage but I'll be shocked if DH is allowed to receive the sacraments and if the priest doesn't ask DH to have the daughter baptized and involved in the church. Technically, you can't receive the sacraments if they know you are pro-choice, but that's harder to enforce. Remember when Kerry was turned away from communion during the presidential elections?

OP here. DD is baptized and the Catholic Church accepts her baptism. I don't believe they will deny him over her at all, since Catholics are only supposed to promise to do everything in their power to raise the child Catholic. Whatever that means. I guess he was supposed to disconnect my car battery to prevent me from having her baptized in a Lutheran church, or something.

They do not, however, accept our marriage as valid and PP is correct, they are supposed to deny him the sacraments, as he is "living in sin". I highly doubt he is planning on telling this priest we're in an invalid marriage, though.

He won't have to tell the priest. The priest will ask. If your husband doesn't mind being turned away at the communion rail, the church will be happy to have him as a pledging member.

It is common practice for the priest to remind the people in the pews that only "catholics in good standing" are welcome at the communion rail. I've heard it frequently at funerals and weddings where they have reason to think lapsed Catholics and clueless protestants will try to take a helping of the transubstantiated body and blood of Christ, not caring about or realizing what a great transgression it is to the faithful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No the priest will not antagonistically "drive a wedge" into the marriage but I'll be shocked if DH is allowed to receive the sacraments and if the priest doesn't ask DH to have the daughter baptized and involved in the church. Technically, you can't receive the sacraments if they know you are pro-choice, but that's harder to enforce. Remember when Kerry was turned away from communion during the presidential elections?

OP here. DD is baptized and the Catholic Church accepts her baptism. I don't believe they will deny him over her at all, since Catholics are only supposed to promise to do everything in their power to raise the child Catholic. Whatever that means. I guess he was supposed to disconnect my car battery to prevent me from having her baptized in a Lutheran church, or something.

They do not, however, accept our marriage as valid and PP is correct, they are supposed to deny him the sacraments, as he is "living in sin". I highly doubt he is planning on telling this priest we're in an invalid marriage, though.

He won't have to tell the priest. The priest will ask. If your husband doesn't mind being turned away at the communion rail, the church will be happy to have him as a pledging member.

It is common practice for the priest to remind the people in the pews that only "catholics in good standing" are welcome at the communion rail. I've heard it frequently at funerals and weddings where they have reason to think lapsed Catholics and clueless protestants will try to take a helping of the transubstantiated body and blood of Christ, not caring about or realizing what a great transgression it is to the faithful.

I suppose some priest somewhere might take this view. But many others, probably most, would see that DH cannot fix the problem of a non-Catholic marriage without causing harm to his marriage and would give him a pass. Again, if DH converted to Catholicism while his family did not I know of no priest who would insist he could not receive sacraments unless his wife agreed to a Catholic marriage. In fact, the church has saints who were married to pagans in nonCatholic marriages (eg Augustine's mother, Monica).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No the priest will not antagonistically "drive a wedge" into the marriage but I'll be shocked if DH is allowed to receive the sacraments and if the priest doesn't ask DH to have the daughter baptized and involved in the church. Technically, you can't receive the sacraments if they know you are pro-choice, but that's harder to enforce. Remember when Kerry was turned away from communion during the presidential elections?

OP here. DD is baptized and the Catholic Church accepts her baptism. I don't believe they will deny him over her at all, since Catholics are only supposed to promise to do everything in their power to raise the child Catholic. Whatever that means. I guess he was supposed to disconnect my car battery to prevent me from having her baptized in a Lutheran church, or something.

They do not, however, accept our marriage as valid and PP is correct, they are supposed to deny him the sacraments, as he is "living in sin". I highly doubt he is planning on telling this priest we're in an invalid marriage, though.

He won't have to tell the priest. The priest will ask. If your husband doesn't mind being turned away at the communion rail, the church will be happy to have him as a pledging member.

It is common practice for the priest to remind the people in the pews that only "catholics in good standing" are welcome at the communion rail. I've heard it frequently at funerals and weddings where they have reason to think lapsed Catholics and clueless protestants will try to take a helping of the transubstantiated body and blood of Christ, not caring about or realizing what a great transgression it is to the faithful.

I suppose some priest somewhere might take this view. But many others, probably most, would see that DH cannot fix the problem of a non-Catholic marriage without causing harm to his marriage and would give him a pass. Again, if DH converted to Catholicism while his family did not I know of no priest who would insist he could not receive sacraments unless his wife agreed to a Catholic marriage. In fact, the church has saints who were married to pagans in nonCatholic marriages (eg Augustine's mother, Monica).

Well St. Monica's husband did convert but you're right, the church will not force a convalidation on DH and OP, just as it cannot force a conversion of OP or DD. However, the DH would be denied sacraments for not being in a sacramentally valid marriage.

But for OP's husband, attending Mass and being part of the Catholic community still might be enough for him without the sacraments. We don't know.