Presidential Scholarship Candidates

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are two big differences between the Presidential Scholar Candidate selection process and National Merit Semifinalist selection process that are relevant in looking at how schools "did":

1. For the Presidential Scholar program, they look at where the student lives, not the school location. So if you go to school in DC (at say, Maret or GDS) you are still matched up against other students from the jurisdiction in which you live.

2. The National Merit Semifinalist program effectively penalizes Washington, D.C. by pegging the D.C. qualifying score to the top in the country. In the Presidential Scholar Candidate selection process, being from DC is more advantageous than being from VA or MD. The reason is that the Presidential Scholar program uses a "flat" approach not taking into account the state's population or number of high scoring students. The top 20 male test takers and top 20 female test takers in any jurisdiction, whether it's giant California or tiny Delaware or tiny Washington, D.C., are designated as candidates.

So, the D.C. private schools -- which have a lot of D.C. residents who are also disproportionately good test takers compared to the entire pool of D.C. high school seniors -- have a built in structural advantage when it comes to Presidential Scholars. But those same D.C. kids with high scores have a built in disadvantage for National Merit Semifinalist, so it works out in a cosmic sense.

I don't follow your No.2. -- there are way more than 40 kids listed for most states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I will say, my child had almost-perfect SAT scores, but did not apply for this honor. I can see from the list, though, [b]that several classmates who he knows to have had lower SAT scores did apply, and have apparently made the cutoff. This is a bit self-selective in that respect.

She said the son said he said she said. How do you know? Which set of SAT scores did the College Board send your son? How many times over the last 4 years has your son taken the SAT?

[/b]


You don't "apply" to this. You either make it, or get a commendation, based off of your PSAT scores, then SAT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Its so interesting because I have to assume a large population of kids from all of these schools live in Maryland, yet these schools appear almost nowhere on the list of Maryland nominees.

SFS ratio is in line with geo mix at school, but we are talking about a very small sample size of 8 kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Its so interesting because I have to assume a large population of kids from all of these schools live in Maryland, yet these schools appear almost nowhere on the list of Maryland nominees.

Only one student from these schools on the VA list.

? I see three potomac names and one STA name on the VA list. And 10 on the MD list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2. The National Merit Semifinalist program effectively penalizes Washington, D.C. by pegging the D.C. qualifying score to the top in the country. In the Presidential Scholar Candidate selection process, being from DC is more advantageous than being from VA or MD. The reason is that the Presidential Scholar program uses a "flat" approach not taking into account the state's population or number of high scoring students. The top 20 male test takers and top 20 female test takers in any jurisdiction, whether it's giant California or tiny Delaware or tiny Washington, D.C., are designated as candidates.

I don't follow your No.2. -- there are way more than 40 kids listed for most states.

Different poster here. I think there are more than 40 because they accept all students tied at the cutoff score. So if there are 19 male students with scores in the 2370-2400 range, and the 20th (final) male student will be at 2360, then they will award Candidate status to all male students scoring 2360, even if there are 100 of them (hypothetically speaking of course). As a result, even the least populous state (Wyoming) will have some ties at the bottom end and thus exceed the 40-student minimum (WY has 50). Populous states will therefore have an advantage because they can generate more ties: e.g., California with 452 Candidates, of which a whopping 412 got in a ties.

Locally, DC has a small population, so it managed only 5 ties (45 Candidates total). Virginia is the 12th most populous state (8.3m), so it got 61 ties (101 total). Interestingly, Maryland is significantly smaller (19th most populous with 5.9m), and yet it logged 70 ties (110 total). I can think of a couple possible reasons MD might have a higher number than VA, but they're just speculation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Quick review and counting looks like:

STA 10
NCS 6
Potomac 6
Maret 6
SFS 7
GDS 11
Holton 1
Landon 1

I'm seeing 8 from Sidwell. Congrats to all of the kids!

[Anonymous]

So should one conclude that all of the DC, Maryland and Virginia kids listed got a 2400? How far down does it actually go? (Anyone know a lower number for someone on the list?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I will say, my child had almost-perfect SAT scores, but did not apply for this honor. I can see from the list, though, [b]that several classmates who he knows to have had lower SAT scores did apply, and have apparently made the cutoff. This is a bit self-selective in that respect.

She said the son said he said she said. How do you know? Which set of SAT scores did the College Board send your son? How many times over the last 4 years has your son taken the SAT?

[/b]


You don't "apply" to this. You either make it, or get a commendation, based off of your PSAT scores, then SAT.

No, PSAT scores have nothing to do with it. The 20 male and 20 female seniors in each state who get the highest combined M + CR SAT scores or equivalent ACT scores, in one sitting, become candidates, regardless of whether they look the PSAT or how they did on it. The students do not apply. The Dept. of Ed. gets the info from the test agencies. If more than one student was the same cut-off score, all the tied students are included, regardless of how many students this is. THis is why there are so many candidates from CA. Lots of kids there got perfect M+CR scores.

In addition, up to 5 male and 5 female students can be nominated by some state commissioner for each state. Doesn't look like this happened in DC.

Finally, 20 artists are selected from the YoungArts competition and added to the list.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:2. The National Merit Semifinalist program effectively penalizes Washington, D.C. by pegging the D.C. qualifying score to the top in the country. In the Presidential Scholar Candidate selection process, being from DC is more advantageous than being from VA or MD. The reason is that the Presidential Scholar program uses a "flat" approach not taking into account the state's population or number of high scoring students. The top 20 male test takers and top 20 female test takers in any jurisdiction, whether it's giant California or tiny Delaware or tiny Washington, D.C., are designated as candidates.

I don't follow your No.2. -- there are way more than 40 kids listed for most states.

Different poster here. I think there are more than 40 because they accept all students tied at the cutoff score. So if there are 19 male students with scores in the 2370-2400 range, and the 20th (final) male student will be at 2360, then they will award Candidate status to all male students scoring 2360, even if there are 100 of them (hypothetically speaking of course). As a result, even the least populous state (Wyoming) will have some ties at the bottom end and thus exceed the 40-student minimum (WY has 50). Populous states will therefore have an advantage because they can generate more ties: e.g., California with 452 Candidates, of which a whopping 412 got in a ties.

Locally, DC has a small population, so it managed only 5 ties (45 Candidates total). Virginia is the 12th most populous state (8.3m), so it got 61 ties (101 total). Interestingly, Maryland is significantly smaller (19th most populous with 5.9m), and yet it logged 70 ties (110 total). I can think of a couple possible reasons MD might have a higher number than VA, but they're just speculation.

Some of this is right, but the writing section isn't considered, only math and critical reading, so the top score is 1600. Also, kids in CA do not have an advantage. States with big populations and lots of bright students have more than 20 kids who get perfect scores, so you need to have a perfect score to be a candidate in those states.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child isn't on it...what a travesty! Of course DC got better ACT scores than SAT and those don't count

Incorrect. ACT scores do count. Your child's ACT scores must not have been high enough, but guess what, no college will care. They aren't looking for perfect scores, just good enough ones.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Quick review and counting looks like:

STA 10
NCS 6
Potomac 6
Maret 6
SFS 7
GDS 11
Holton 1
Landon 1

I'm seeing 8 from Sidwell. Congrats to all of the kids!

this information needs to be assessed against class size for each school. for instance, sidwell has a much larger graduating class than STA or NCS does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Quick review and counting looks like, with each school's multi-year average in (parentheses):

STA 10 (average 5)
NCS 6 (7)
Potomac 6 (2)
Maret 6 (6)
SFS 7 (11)
GDS 11 (6)
Holton 1 (2)
Landon 1 (1)

Interesting...so I compared this to some of the publics in DC and MoCo. (Did not have the energy to add in NoVA, nor to do all the schools and their multi-year averages). Maybe someone else can dig that up?

Montgomery Blair HS 18
STA 10 (average 5)
NCS 6 (7)
Potomac 6 (2)
Maret 6 (6)
SFS 7 (11)
GDS 11 (6)
School Without Walls 4
Bethesda Chevy Chase HS 3
Whitman HS 3
Holton 1 (2)
Landon 1 (1)
Bolling Air Force Base (1)

[Anonymous]

I think in Md you typically need 1600 -- there are probably more than 30 kids in the state who do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I think in Md you typically need 1600 -- there are probably more than 30 kids in the state who do that.

Source? For this or the similar California claim above.

[Anonymous]

If memory serves me, about 1,500 kids every year score 2400 on the three part SAT. If you exclude the highly subjective and not particularly correlated writing section, as the Presidential Scolars Program does, you End up with well in excess of 3,000 with 1600 on M+R (this is a rough guess and the actual number could be higher). SAT's market share has steadily declined, with close to half of graduating seniors choosing the ACT instead. There is probably some overlap between the two pools, but not much (why would you bother taking the ACT if you got 1600 on M+R SAT?). So, we can probably assume at least 4,000 kids with perfect (not close to perfect, but perfect) board scores (combined tests) as measured by PSP. With CA as large as it is (14-15% of US population) and the Top 40 plus ties rule, it is almost a mathematical certainty that the qualifying SAT score for CA was 1600. It is also highly likely for any populous state, with 1580/1590 as the only other likely outcomes.