Christian view of Abraham?

[Anonymous]

I am the poster at 23:11, and it was asked subsequently, "Where did Abraham say Jesus was to come and be His Savior, though?"

I will also answer this as though it's a straight-up question. The Bible does not record God saying verbatim to Abraham that he must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But Abraham believed God, and the Bible is clear that in the Old Testament, there were many believers in the LORD God who looked ahead to the promise of the Messiah, and the New Testament records this faith as what saved before the advent of Christ.

If you can suspend your desire to shout, "That's cosmic child abuse!" try reading Genesis 22 and glean from it the lesson that it is meant to provide. This is the recounting of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on Mount Moriah. This was done to illustrate the level of faith that Abraham had in the promises of God, which I demonstrated Scripturally in my previous post is held up as an example for all of mankind that we are made right through God by our faith. I for one am extremely grateful for this illustration that provides part of the confidence I have in my own salvation in Christ.

Regarding the sacrifice of Isaac, when Abraham was taking his son up the mountain, Isaac asked where the sacrifice was, and Abraham responded that "God will provide himself" the sacrifice. And if you recall that God had promised that Abraham would have many descendants through Isaac, the Bible in Hebrews 11 states that though Abraham was leading his son up to sacrifice him, "Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead" and thus keep His promise to him.

In short, Abraham thought he was heading to sacrifice his beloved son, whom he expected God to raise from the dead.

If you can't see in this story a foreshadowing of God's sacrifice of His own Son and of the resurrection of Christ, then you are willfully looking the other way.

Incidentally, when God did provide the sacrifice -- a ram on the top of Mount Moriah -- so that Abraham did not actually sacrifice Isaac, the ram was found in a thicket of thorns. This foreshadows the crown of thorns that was thrust on Jesus's head before the crucifixion.

The Bible is truly a beautiful book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So then who is exempt from the punishment of hell for not accepting Jesus as Savior in Christianity?

Are people living in rural areas who never heard of Christ still able to go to Heaven? Are people born before Christ able to avoid hell? Are people living in countries that prohibit Christians from proselytizing also able to avoid Hell?

Once you hear the good news, you are accountable. I would assume God treats the unknowing the same as he treats the unborn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So then who is exempt from the punishment of hell for not accepting Jesus as Savior in Christianity?

Are people living in rural areas who never heard of Christ still able to go to Heaven? Are people born before Christ able to avoid hell? Are people living in countries that prohibit Christians from proselytizing also able to avoid Hell?

Once you hear the good news, you are accountable. I would assume God treats the unknowing the same as he treats the unborn.

So when missionaries attempt to convert the heathens, and the heathens refuse to change their belief system, now that they're "in the know," will they end up in hell?

What if their belief system doesn't have a hell?

And does this mean that the Christian way trumps all over belief systems?

Please respond. I prefer evidence from other sources - not just the bible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

God's word is timeless, plus we have modern day theologians and Christian novelists to explain what we don't understand

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

Horus, Mithras, Narnia (instead of the serious works PP was clearly referencing).

Cutting and pasting weird and incorrect stuff about Nicea.

Abusive insults.

Not reading the thoughtful responses you asked for.

All of that's trollish for sure. A better question is, what's not trollish about any of this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

God's word is timeless, plus we have modern day theologians and Christian novelists to explain what we don't understand

Once more. Nobody asked you to read the Narnia series, they asked you to read Lewis' serious works and essays.

Are you really that bad at reading comprehension, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:God sent Jesus into the world as a way shower. When Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, the light, no ones gets to the Father except through me", what more progressive Christians believe He meant was that no one can become closer to God (Source, Love, Creator, First Mover..whatever your name for that Universal good) unless they learn to become more Christ-like. Compassion, Love, Tolerance, Charity.... Those are the qualities that Jesus exemplified. We become closer to our Source (and "heaven") by trying to be more like Him.

However, there are many, many paths to that same end goal.

NP here, this is reflective of my beliefs also.
Having grown up in a more 'strict' Christian background though, I also want to note how much I appreciate the PP that included the thoughtful post about Abraham and others in the Old Testament.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

God's word is timeless, plus we have modern day theologians and Christian novelists to explain what we don't understand

Once more. Nobody asked you to read the Narnia series, they asked you to read Lewis' serious works and essays.

There are many Christian novels and novelists, some with very moving spiritual messages. True, some are insipid or poorly written or even laughable, but that's the case with novels in general and anything written by humans.

Are you really that bad at reading comprehension, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

God's word is timeless, plus we have modern day theologians and Christian novelists to explain what we don't understand

Once more. Nobody asked you to read the Narnia series, they asked you to read Lewis' serious works and essays.

Are you really that bad at reading comprehension, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

-------

There are many Christian novels and novelists, some with very moving spiritual messages. True, some are insipid or poorly written or even laughable, but that's the case with novels in general and anything written by humans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

God's word is timeless, plus we have modern day theologians and Christian novelists to explain what we don't understand

Once more. Nobody asked you to read the Narnia series, they asked you to read Lewis' serious works and essays.

Are you really that bad at reading comprehension, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

-------

There are many Christian novels and novelists, some with very moving spiritual messages. True, some are insipid or poorly written or even laughable, but that's the case with novels in general and anything written by humans.

Nobody told atheists here to read any Christian novel of any sort. Case closed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the poster at 23:11, and it was asked subsequently, "Where did Abraham say Jesus was to come and be His Savior, though?"

I will also answer this as though it's a straight-up question. The Bible does not record God saying verbatim to Abraham that he must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But Abraham believed God, and the Bible is clear that in the Old Testament, there were many believers in the LORD God who looked ahead to the promise of the Messiah, and the New Testament records this faith as what saved before the advent of Christ.

If you can suspend your desire to shout, "That's cosmic child abuse!" try reading Genesis 22 and glean from it the lesson that it is meant to provide. This is the recounting of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on Mount Moriah. This was done to illustrate the level of faith that Abraham had in the promises of God, which I demonstrated Scripturally in my previous post is held up as an example for all of mankind that we are made right through God by our faith. I for one am extremely grateful for this illustration that provides part of the confidence I have in my own salvation in Christ.

Regarding the sacrifice of Isaac, when Abraham was taking his son up the mountain, Isaac asked where the sacrifice was, and Abraham responded that "God will provide himself" the sacrifice. And if you recall that God had promised that Abraham would have many descendants through Isaac, the Bible in Hebrews 11 states that though Abraham was leading his son up to sacrifice him, "Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead" and thus keep His promise to him.

In short, Abraham thought he was heading to sacrifice his beloved son, whom he expected God to raise from the dead.

If you can't see in this story a foreshadowing of God's sacrifice of His own Son and of the resurrection of Christ, then you are willfully looking the other way.

Incidentally, when God did provide the sacrifice -- a ram on the top of Mount Moriah -- so that Abraham did not actually sacrifice Isaac, the ram was found in a thicket of thorns. This foreshadows the crown of thorns that was thrust on Jesus's head before the crucifixion.

The Bible is truly a beautiful book.

This is a beautiful example of how people can make the bible mean anything they want it to mean. You'd think God could have found another way of foreshadowing the crucifixion that didn't disgust and confuse so many people. You'd think he'd find a way to save humanity besides the crucifixion -- sacrificing his own son, but it sounds like sacrifice was his thing -- as it was for so many ordinary mortals during those times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, I guess I don't feel like contributing to the moderator's income by continuing to click on trolly BS like this thread.

I'm tired of how the moderator removes every troll on DCUM - except for the Christian-hating trolls. In that case, he removes any jpegs that might offend the poor Christian-hating trolls. I think I won't be contributing any more to his income here, either.

We just prefer well-rounded evidence.

How is that being trollish?

Should I keep returning to World Book Encyclopedias dating back to the 70s when I want to research a topic?

God's word is timeless, plus we have modern day theologians and Christian novelists to explain what we don't understand

Once more. Nobody asked you to read the Narnia series, they asked you to read Lewis' serious works and essays.

Are you really that bad at reading comprehension, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

-------

There are many Christian novels and novelists, some with very moving spiritual messages. True, some are insipid or poorly written or even laughable, but that's the case with novels in general and anything written by humans.

Nobody told atheists here to read any Christian novel of any sort. Case closed.

So don't read Christian novels if you don't want to -- some people have had life changing experiences while reading such books. High-brow theology is not for everyone. Sunday school and sermons can be boring. But some Christian books can really capture your attention and change your heart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the poster at 23:11, and it was asked subsequently, "Where did Abraham say Jesus was to come and be His Savior, though?"

I will also answer this as though it's a straight-up question. The Bible does not record God saying verbatim to Abraham that he must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. But Abraham believed God, and the Bible is clear that in the Old Testament, there were many believers in the LORD God who looked ahead to the promise of the Messiah, and the New Testament records this faith as what saved before the advent of Christ.

If you can suspend your desire to shout, "That's cosmic child abuse!" try reading Genesis 22 and glean from it the lesson that it is meant to provide. This is the recounting of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac, on Mount Moriah. This was done to illustrate the level of faith that Abraham had in the promises of God, which I demonstrated Scripturally in my previous post is held up as an example for all of mankind that we are made right through God by our faith. I for one am extremely grateful for this illustration that provides part of the confidence I have in my own salvation in Christ.

Regarding the sacrifice of Isaac, when Abraham was taking his son up the mountain, Isaac asked where the sacrifice was, and Abraham responded that "God will provide himself" the sacrifice. And if you recall that God had promised that Abraham would have many descendants through Isaac, the Bible in Hebrews 11 states that though Abraham was leading his son up to sacrifice him, "Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead" and thus keep His promise to him.

In short, Abraham thought he was heading to sacrifice his beloved son, whom he expected God to raise from the dead.

If you can't see in this story a foreshadowing of God's sacrifice of His own Son and of the resurrection of Christ, then you are willfully looking the other way.

Incidentally, when God did provide the sacrifice -- a ram on the top of Mount Moriah -- so that Abraham did not actually sacrifice Isaac, the ram was found in a thicket of thorns. This foreshadows the crown of thorns that was thrust on Jesus's head before the crucifixion.

The Bible is truly a beautiful book.

This is a beautiful example of how people can make the bible mean anything they want it to mean. You'd think God could have found another way of foreshadowing the crucifixion that didn't disgust and confuse so many people. You'd think he'd find a way to save humanity besides the crucifixion -- sacrificing his own son, but it sounds like sacrifice was his thing -- as it was for so many ordinary mortals during those times.

No, the problem is that your post is a beautiful example of what happens when you read parts of Bible out of context. Read as a whole, it's pretty hard to miss what Bible says this episode is meant to prefigure and describe. The entire Bible is about Christ.