WaPo's Wonkblog: "Private colleges are a waste of money for white, middle-class kids"

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

You sound unbearable.

+1,000

You sound like you don't know what you are talking about. At my residential LAC, we lived in dorms for 4 years. We ate in one cafeteria. My dorm was less than 1/2 block from every academic building. When we said we lived on campus, we literally lived on campus. I saw all of my classmates every day, for nearly every meal. I knew every person in my major really well. You are living with the people with whom you study. You know many of your professors personally. There are many more opportunities for undergraduate research and idea development. It's a community in a way that a big state school can't replicate.

Bzzzzzt, wrong. I have been to both types of school. I know what I'm talking about.

PS you still sound awful and unbearable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

You sound unbearable.

+1,000

You sound like you don't know what you are talking about. At my residential LAC, we lived in dorms for 4 years. We ate in one cafeteria. My dorm was less than 1/2 block from every academic building. When we said we lived on campus, we literally lived on campus. I saw all of my classmates every day, for nearly every meal. I knew every person in my major really well. You are living with the people with whom you study. You know many of your professors personally. There are many more opportunities for undergraduate research and idea development. It's a community in a way that a big state school can't replicate.

Seems insular. How does surrounding yourself with such sameness day in and day out prepare you to interact with the many different types of people you'll live and work with every day?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

Of course this is a giant load of BS. But if you've dropped $150K+ on a degree, and the guy next you paid $40K for his, you've gotta justify it somehow.

I didn't spend a dime on my undergrad education. I had a full ride, on a merit scholarship. I also had multiple full rides to state schools. I was a National Merit Scholar. I had my choice of schools.

For most middle class kids and working class kids, grant aid at many LACs will make them comparable in cost to most state schools. Given that costs will be roughly equal, kids are better off at LACs.

It's kids who have parents with high income, but not high wealth, that are really screwed. They don't qualify for much aid and their parents are looking at sticker prices and trying to justify the extra $$$$$. I feel sorry for them.

I have a few issues with this, but: "merit scholarships" are "tuition discounting" or "pricing", can we call it that? You had something that the schools wanted for their USNWR rankings, so they offered you a lower price. "Merit scholarship" is a sales pitch on a price offer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

You sound unbearable.

+1,000

You sound like you don't know what you are talking about. At my residential LAC, we lived in dorms for 4 years. We ate in one cafeteria. My dorm was less than 1/2 block from every academic building. When we said we lived on campus, we literally lived on campus. I saw all of my classmates every day, for nearly every meal. I knew every person in my major really well. You are living with the people with whom you study. You know many of your professors personally. There are many more opportunities for undergraduate research and idea development. It's a community in a way that a big state school can't replicate.

Bzzzzzt, wrong. I have been to both types of school. I know what I'm talking about.

PS you still sound awful and unbearable.

+1

[Anonymous]

Liberal arts proponent (and I think they're great, too, so it's not that), please stop. To say that every student would be better off at a liberal arts college than at a state school is just nonsense.

Different strokes and all. A concept they may even teach at state schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

Oh for crying out loud. They certainly are doing all of the above. Many state schools have an integrated curriculum, residential honor colleges, and cross-field connections a-plenty. It's a myth to say that kind of learning environment is only found at a private college.

They try, but they don't it as well or as extensively. I've met very few state university graduates who can hold a candle to graduates of LACs, even from mediocre LACs. My LAC devoted 1/3 of the curriculum to the major, 1/3 to LAC requirements, and 1/3 to electives. That meant that students were less intensively educated in their majors, but more broadly educated in general. Many, many students took a double major in a science and a humanity. (biology and Latin, physics and philosophy, etc.) Students also have the opportunity to design their own majors, under the guidance of a professor and with approval from the college. Other students took the opportunity to explore subjects that interested them.

BTW, small LACS also have graduation rates that are quite a bit higher than state university graduation rates. They also have a shorter time to graduation. For a kid that is headed to graduate or professional school, it's best way to go.

I find these kids too coddled to hire. Give me a Big Ten student/bartender/waitress over a parent-funded triple major any day of the week. I want to see a little drive and not have their parents calling me about job acceptances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find these kids too coddled to hire. Give me a Big Ten student/bartender/waitress over a parent-funded triple major any day of the week. I want to see a little drive and not have their parents calling me about job acceptances.

Amen.

[Anonymous]

The world needs many different kinds of talent and people. Many people who work in sales or manufacturing agree with you. As a generalization, many "intellectual" kids can't take the endless rejection of sales work or the boring routines of factory management. Most of the value in the world comes from pretty ordinary everyday work and we should all honor blue and pink collar and tie and short sleeve workers.

But, let's try not to get anti-intellectual and pretend that the world doesn't need smart thinkers too. You might call them coddled, but a society needs scientists and intellectuals too. The bartender isn't going to be much use researching new cancer treatments and the waitress just isn't qualified to be an appellate court judge.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The world needs many different kinds of talent and people. Many people who work in sales or manufacturing agree with you. As a generalization, many "intellectual" kids can't take the endless rejection of sales work or the boring routines of factory management. Most of the value in the world comes from pretty ordinary everyday work and we should all honor blue and pink collar and tie and short sleeve workers.

But, let's try not to get anti-intellectual and pretend that the world doesn't need smart thinkers too. You might call them coddled, but a society needs scientists and intellectuals too. The bartender isn't going to be much use researching new cancer treatments and the waitress just isn't qualified to be an appellate court judge.

So people who put themselves through college waiting tables can't end up in law school?

Wow. Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

I find that ivy and elite educated women I date can easily speak to and discuss a really wide range of topics with ease and comfort more than state school girls (i'm a state school alum for UG myself).

Even controlling for the class, the biggest difference is verbal intelligence - both written and spoken.

A small sample for example - take OKC messages - I have noticed that ivy alum women write way more eloquently than state school alum (even if they have similar jobs).

You need to get out more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The world needs many different kinds of talent and people. Many people who work in sales or manufacturing agree with you. As a generalization, many "intellectual" kids can't take the endless rejection of sales work or the boring routines of factory management. Most of the value in the world comes from pretty ordinary everyday work and we should all honor blue and pink collar and tie and short sleeve workers.

But, let's try not to get anti-intellectual and pretend that the world doesn't need smart thinkers too. You might call them coddled, but a society needs scientists and intellectuals too. The bartender isn't going to be much use researching new cancer treatments and the waitress just isn't qualified to be an appellate court judge.

So people who put themselves through college waiting tables can't end up in law school?

Wow. Really?

Reading comprehension issues. PP said that a waitress ALONE, with no training beyond being a waitress, isn't qualified to be an appellate court judge. Do you disagree?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

Oh for crying out loud. They certainly are doing all of the above. Many state schools have an integrated curriculum, residential honor colleges, and cross-field connections a-plenty. It's a myth to say that kind of learning environment is only found at a private college.

They try, but they don't it as well or as extensively. I've met very few state university graduates who can hold a candle to graduates of LACs, even from mediocre LACs. My LAC devoted 1/3 of the curriculum to the major, 1/3 to LAC requirements, and 1/3 to electives. That meant that students were less intensively educated in their majors, but more broadly educated in general. Many, many students took a double major in a science and a humanity. (biology and Latin, physics and philosophy, etc.) Students also have the opportunity to design their own majors, under the guidance of a professor and with approval from the college. Other students took the opportunity to explore subjects that interested them.

BTW, small LACS also have graduation rates that are quite a bit higher than state university graduation rates. They also have a shorter time to graduation. For a kid that is headed to graduate or professional school, it's best way to go.

Well, let's see... I'm a state school grad and currently have a child attending a VA state school as well. The 1/3 plan you describe was (and is) a very commonly used approach for liberal arts colleges and universities, regardless of public or private status. While in college, I delved deep into philosophy, music theory, Russian language and culture, and cartography, all while working on both my general and major requirements. Upon graduation, I had no trouble getting into a top grad school in my field. My DC, who lives in the honors community on campus, is considering majoring in International Relations, but is also extremely interested in comparative literature, theater, and architecture, so he may do an Interdisciplinary Study or self-designed major, with the approval and guidance of his advisor.

So forgive me if I think everything you've said is BS. I don't think you know the first thing about state schools and how very little (if any) difference there is between public and private. Other than the price tag, of course.

[Anonymous]

I think of SLACs as graduating men and women who lack practical skills and probably learned to speak with an uptick. Because, you know, in a true "community," you learn to question everything, even the sentence you're in the middle of saying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

Oh for crying out loud. They certainly are doing all of the above. Many state schools have an integrated curriculum, residential honor colleges, and cross-field connections a-plenty. It's a myth to say that kind of learning environment is only found at a private college.

They try, but they don't it as well or as extensively. I've met very few state university graduates who can hold a candle to graduates of LACs, even from mediocre LACs. My LAC devoted 1/3 of the curriculum to the major, 1/3 to LAC requirements, and 1/3 to electives. That meant that students were less intensively educated in their majors, but more broadly educated in general. Many, many students took a double major in a science and a humanity. (biology and Latin, physics and philosophy, etc.) Students also have the opportunity to design their own majors, under the guidance of a professor and with approval from the college. Other students took the opportunity to explore subjects that interested them.

BTW, small LACS also have graduation rates that are quite a bit higher than state university graduation rates. They also have a shorter time to graduation. For a kid that is headed to graduate or professional school, it's best way to go.

Well, let's see... I'm a state school grad and currently have a child attending a VA state school as well. The 1/3 plan you describe was (and is) a very commonly used approach for liberal arts colleges and universities, regardless of public or private status. While in college, I delved deep into philosophy, music theory, Russian language and culture, and cartography, all while working on both my general and major requirements. Upon graduation, I had no trouble getting into a top grad school in my field. My DC, who lives in the honors community on campus, is considering majoring in International Relations, but is also extremely interested in comparative literature, theater, and architecture, so he may do an Interdisciplinary Study or self-designed major, with the approval and guidance of his advisor.

So forgive me if I think everything you've said is BS. I don't think you know the first thing about state schools and how very little (if any) difference there is between public and private. Other than the price tag, of course.

Okay, let's look at the price tag. I played with the net price calculators for the flagship university in my home state -- University of Illinois -- and for the LAC that I attended and for an LAC where my friend now teaches.

Here's what I got for net price estimates for my family:

University of Illinois -- expected family contribution $29,000
my alma mater (decent, but not ranked) -- expected family contribution $10,000
my friend's college (nationally ranked LAC) -- expected family contribution $5000

So... tell me again how state schools beat out LACs on price?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It really depends on how you define middle class, what caliber of student, and financial aid decisions. Many of these private colleges have huge endowments and give a lot more financial aid than would be available at a state school. I'm white, middle class parents, and went to a small liberal arts school for far less than it would have cost me to attend a state school.

+1

My school gave me a lot of financial aid. And I love having a liberal arts education. I loved living in a residential setting at an LAC for four years. It wasn't just about getting a major and a career; it was about becoming educated.

I think state schools do a great job teaching kids material in their majors, but they aren't always good thinkers across a broad range of topics, and they aren't educated in a well rounded way.

State schools have the same classes that small LACs do. Kids at state school take History and Philosophy and they think about all the problems in the world too.

They take some of the same classes, but those classes aren't integrate into a whole curriculum in the same way. They aren't living in the same type of residential "community of scholars." They don't make the connections between fields in the same way.

I've taken classes at state schools. They are excellent in their majors, but they don't train thinkers. It's just not the same.

Oh for crying out loud. They certainly are doing all of the above. Many state schools have an integrated curriculum, residential honor colleges, and cross-field connections a-plenty. It's a myth to say that kind of learning environment is only found at a private college.

I'm a HYP alum who married a state school alum. He's much, much brighter across many disciplines than probably 90% of the people I went to school with.

HYP is currently full of posers, anyway -- maybe not when I went (probably even then), but now? Very few people who authentically are deep thinkers and brilliant. VERY many people with rich or powerful parents, or Asians whose parents rode them so hard to get into HYP they are basically empty shells that memorize everything. It's tremendously disappointing, to the point that I am going to prepare DD and DS to go to university outside of the U.S. since I don't think HYP actually train "thinkers" anymore so much as fratty I-bankers and soulless kids pushed in there by their parents.