"DC really has School Chance, not School Choice"

[Anonymous]

The charters interesting to college educated dc parents have become as difficult to get into as it ever was to get into a high performing dcps ES as an OOB family. So that situation has simply perpetuated itself ( excluding the consideration that those charters offer alternative models that are new to dc). However all the charters across the city that perform better than the neighborhood dcps option are providing value to heir students regardless of whether the college educated parent wants to enter their lottery. That reality is a net gain for dc for sure. Just like the first charter parents were thinking outside the box, current parents need to think outside the box of their coveted and limited list of acceptable options. Good luck and be flexible!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would contend that chance is better than no choice at all.

Just because you didn't get your choice doesn't mean that someone else didn't either.

I would argue that you are wrong and the majority of families don't like lotterying education.

I really don't think I'm all that wrong and I'd suggest you take a deeper look beyond a simplistic question of "do you like the lottery".

It's pretty clear that given the fact that nearly half of the students in DC are in charters and the fact that there are many more who still want to get into charters and many more charters being applied for with strong interest behind them quite clearly says they still want to have choice even if that means by lottery.

Yes, some are frustrated that they didn't get into their first-choice school. But for every one who didn't another one did. And getting into your second-choice school rather than your first-choice school may still be a whole lot better than if you didn't try the lottery at all. Just because some don't like lotteries doesn't mean they don't still want choice. People definitely want choice, they just want the mechanism for getting into their desired schools tweaked. But the problem is that nobody agrees on how to tweak it. If, for example, schools were given more latitude in terms of admissions (like test in) rather than lottery, that would satisfy many families, but anger many others.

Your argument misses out on the families that leave DC once they have "lost" the lottery, or who shy away from playing at all, since they have seen others fail.

The city will not improve if the middle class leaves again. Perhaps your are new to DC, but this recent growth trend in population started BEFORE the lotteries and charter schools, not because of it. Urban renewal is happening in urban areas throughout the country, and is not a direct result of school choice wooing families to stay in DC.

The "choice" you describe includes leaving the city, regardless of income level. Until DC recognizes they should actively attract a range of income levels, there is no hope to magically balance the schools out by busing or a lottery system.

Different poster - I don't understand your point about families moving out? More and more families are moving IN to DC, and the choices for schools are actually IMproving, not getting worse. Of course there are families who, if they strike out in the public lotteries, they will leave DC. But overall families are apparently deciding that DC is worth it because middle and upper class families are *staying* in DC more and more right now. The lottery is clearly frustrating to those who don't luck out with their favorite choices, but a lot of families end up really liking their 2nd and 3rd choices and they stay, and for the families who were always going to leave for private for middle school or move out of DC, well that has been going on for ages. But it's decreasing, not increasing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would contend that chance is better than no choice at all.

Just because you didn't get your choice doesn't mean that someone else didn't either.

I would argue that you are wrong and the majority of families don't like lotterying education.

I really don't think I'm all that wrong and I'd suggest you take a deeper look beyond a simplistic question of "do you like the lottery".

It's pretty clear that given the fact that nearly half of the students in DC are in charters and the fact that there are many more who still want to get into charters and many more charters being applied for with strong interest behind them quite clearly says they still want to have choice even if that means by lottery.

Yes, some are frustrated that they didn't get into their first-choice school. But for every one who didn't another one did. And getting into your second-choice school rather than your first-choice school may still be a whole lot better than if you didn't try the lottery at all. Just because some don't like lotteries doesn't mean they don't still want choice. People definitely want choice, they just want the mechanism for getting into their desired schools tweaked. But the problem is that nobody agrees on how to tweak it. If, for example, schools were given more latitude in terms of admissions (like test in) rather than lottery, that would satisfy many families, but anger many others.

Your argument misses out on the families that leave DC once they have "lost" the lottery, or who shy away from playing at all, since they have seen others fail.

The city will not improve if the middle class leaves again. Perhaps your are new to DC, but this recent growth trend in population started BEFORE the lotteries and charter schools, not because of it. Urban renewal is happening in urban areas throughout the country, and is not a direct result of school choice wooing families to stay in DC.

The "choice" you describe includes leaving the city, regardless of income level. Until DC recognizes they should actively attract a range of income levels, there is no hope to magically balance the schools out by busing or a lottery system.

Move out of DC is a choice of last resort and I'd point out that there are many choices besides that - for example that charters are what's helping to keep many families in DC. Many of the families currently in charters would have otherwise also left for the burbs or exercised other options if they hadn't gotten into charters. Also, as for the range of income levels, that's driven by available jobs. DC has far more jobs for policy wonks than it does riveting together widgets on an assembly line. Your argument about no choice or not taking things into consideration seems to be about as fallacious as the Yogi Berra "nobody goes there anymore because it got to be too popular" type of argument. You act like nobody ever gets in and everyone hates the lottery yet the fact is that over 35,000 students DID get in.

Many, if not most, of those 35,000 would rather go to a school near their home that was good if that option was available to them. I guarantee it, experiential learning and all.

I really don't think you are from here. You don't seem to understand that the population of DC doubles during the day with commuters. My point is, if we can convince more people to stay INSIDE the city, then all schools would be better. Then more people would see it as an option to stay. You are sort of saying, screw the people who are not tough enough to stay in the city, I am saying, let's make things better so that more people choose to stay in the city. San Francisco has few children, is that what you want DC to be like? Push out the middle class?

WOw I must be missing something - is there a shortage of people staying in DC? I do understand that there is movement; some people leave, and apparently more move in to replace them than left in the first place. DC's population is going up. I guess what you're really saying is "If the right people stayed" DC would get better? Because I wasn't aware that we needed the actual population of DC to continue to increase (even though it obviously is increasing).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would contend that chance is better than no choice at all.

Just because you didn't get your choice doesn't mean that someone else didn't either.

I would argue that you are wrong and the majority of families don't like lotterying education.

I really don't think I'm all that wrong and I'd suggest you take a deeper look beyond a simplistic question of "do you like the lottery".

It's pretty clear that given the fact that nearly half of the students in DC are in charters and the fact that there are many more who still want to get into charters and many more charters being applied for with strong interest behind them quite clearly says they still want to have choice even if that means by lottery.

Yes, some are frustrated that they didn't get into their first-choice school. But for every one who didn't another one did. And getting into your second-choice school rather than your first-choice school may still be a whole lot better than if you didn't try the lottery at all. Just because some don't like lotteries doesn't mean they don't still want choice. People definitely want choice, they just want the mechanism for getting into their desired schools tweaked. But the problem is that nobody agrees on how to tweak it. If, for example, schools were given more latitude in terms of admissions (like test in) rather than lottery, that would satisfy many families, but anger many others.

Your argument misses out on the families that leave DC once they have "lost" the lottery, or who shy away from playing at all, since they have seen others fail.

The city will not improve if the middle class leaves again. Perhaps your are new to DC, but this recent growth trend in population started BEFORE the lotteries and charter schools, not because of it. Urban renewal is happening in urban areas throughout the country, and is not a direct result of school choice wooing families to stay in DC.

The "choice" you describe includes leaving the city, regardless of income level. Until DC recognizes they should actively attract a range of income levels, there is no hope to magically balance the schools out by busing or a lottery system.

Different poster - I don't understand your point about families moving out? More and more families are moving IN to DC, and the choices for schools are actually IMproving, not getting worse. Of course there are families who, if they strike out in the public lotteries, they will leave DC. But overall families are apparently deciding that DC is worth it because middle and upper class families are *staying* in DC more and more right now. The lottery is clearly frustrating to those who don't luck out with their favorite choices, but a lot of families end up really liking their 2nd and 3rd choices and they stay, and for the families who were always going to leave for private for middle school or move out of DC, well that has been going on for ages. But it's decreasing, not increasing.

This influx of families will reverse if the middle and high schools are subject to lotteries as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would contend that chance is better than no choice at all.

Just because you didn't get your choice doesn't mean that someone else didn't either.

I would argue that you are wrong and the majority of families don't like lotterying education.

I really don't think I'm all that wrong and I'd suggest you take a deeper look beyond a simplistic question of "do you like the lottery".

It's pretty clear that given the fact that nearly half of the students in DC are in charters and the fact that there are many more who still want to get into charters and many more charters being applied for with strong interest behind them quite clearly says they still want to have choice even if that means by lottery.

Yes, some are frustrated that they didn't get into their first-choice school. But for every one who didn't another one did. And getting into your second-choice school rather than your first-choice school may still be a whole lot better than if you didn't try the lottery at all. Just because some don't like lotteries doesn't mean they don't still want choice. People definitely want choice, they just want the mechanism for getting into their desired schools tweaked. But the problem is that nobody agrees on how to tweak it. If, for example, schools were given more latitude in terms of admissions (like test in) rather than lottery, that would satisfy many families, but anger many others.

Your argument misses out on the families that leave DC once they have "lost" the lottery, or who shy away from playing at all, since they have seen others fail.

The city will not improve if the middle class leaves again. Perhaps your are new to DC, but this recent growth trend in population started BEFORE the lotteries and charter schools, not because of it. Urban renewal is happening in urban areas throughout the country, and is not a direct result of school choice wooing families to stay in DC.

The "choice" you describe includes leaving the city, regardless of income level. Until DC recognizes they should actively attract a range of income levels, there is no hope to magically balance the schools out by busing or a lottery system.

Different poster - I don't understand your point about families moving out? More and more families are moving IN to DC, and the choices for schools are actually IMproving, not getting worse. Of course there are families who, if they strike out in the public lotteries, they will leave DC. But overall families are apparently deciding that DC is worth it because middle and upper class families are *staying* in DC more and more right now. The lottery is clearly frustrating to those who don't luck out with their favorite choices, but a lot of families end up really liking their 2nd and 3rd choices and they stay, and for the families who were always going to leave for private for middle school or move out of DC, well that has been going on for ages. But it's decreasing, not increasing.

This influx of families will reverse if the middle and high schools are subject to lotteries as well.

Really? Why? Or are you just talking about Deal and Wilson being subject to lottery?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would contend that chance is better than no choice at all.

Just because you didn't get your choice doesn't mean that someone else didn't either.

I would argue that you are wrong and the majority of families don't like lotterying education.

I really don't think I'm all that wrong and I'd suggest you take a deeper look beyond a simplistic question of "do you like the lottery".

It's pretty clear that given the fact that nearly half of the students in DC are in charters and the fact that there are many more who still want to get into charters and many more charters being applied for with strong interest behind them quite clearly says they still want to have choice even if that means by lottery.

Yes, some are frustrated that they didn't get into their first-choice school. But for every one who didn't another one did. And getting into your second-choice school rather than your first-choice school may still be a whole lot better than if you didn't try the lottery at all. Just because some don't like lotteries doesn't mean they don't still want choice. People definitely want choice, they just want the mechanism for getting into their desired schools tweaked. But the problem is that nobody agrees on how to tweak it. If, for example, schools were given more latitude in terms of admissions (like test in) rather than lottery, that would satisfy many families, but anger many others.

Your argument misses out on the families that leave DC once they have "lost" the lottery, or who shy away from playing at all, since they have seen others fail.

The city will not improve if the middle class leaves again. Perhaps your are new to DC, but this recent growth trend in population started BEFORE the lotteries and charter schools, not because of it. Urban renewal is happening in urban areas throughout the country, and is not a direct result of school choice wooing families to stay in DC.

The "choice" you describe includes leaving the city, regardless of income level. Until DC recognizes they should actively attract a range of income levels, there is no hope to magically balance the schools out by busing or a lottery system.

Different poster - I don't understand your point about families moving out? More and more families are moving IN to DC, and the choices for schools are actually IMproving, not getting worse. Of course there are families who, if they strike out in the public lotteries, they will leave DC. But overall families are apparently deciding that DC is worth it because middle and upper class families are *staying* in DC more and more right now. The lottery is clearly frustrating to those who don't luck out with their favorite choices, but a lot of families end up really liking their 2nd and 3rd choices and they stay, and for the families who were always going to leave for private for middle school or move out of DC, well that has been going on for ages. But it's decreasing, not increasing.

This influx of families will reverse if the middle and high schools are subject to lotteries as well.

Really? Why? Or are you just talking about Deal and Wilson being subject to lottery?

Because when DC is hostile to middle class families, they leave. Montgomery County, Fairfax County, and PG County have ALL prospered enormously as a result. More than one wave of middle class families have left the city when the city ignored their needs.

[Anonymous]

But apparently more moved in to replace them. And some obviously never leave. Who is are all these families who ditch public for private at K or 5th grade?

[Anonymous]

There are plenty of middle class families who would be thrilled if Deal and Wilson beams lottery schools. They're called OOB families and there are many.

[Anonymous]

^^ Became, not beams.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of middle class families who would be thrilled if Deal and Wilson beams lottery schools. They're called OOB families and there are many.

And when your child doesn't win the lottery? The thrill will be over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of middle class families who would be thrilled if Deal and Wilson beams lottery schools. They're called OOB families and there are many.

And when your child doesn't win the lottery? The thrill will be over.

But the thrill is over now if you don't win the lottery. Technically, even if not one single other charter middle or high school opens and no more DCPS middle or highs open, technically there will be the same number of kids in each grade in DC, but a lottery for Deal and Wilson would change who those kids could be.

Not saying there wouldn't be both positive and negative consequences of that change - there are some predictable effects and probably many unpredictable ones. But theoretically there would be no more families for whom the thrill would be over whether it was lottery or IB. Just different families.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But apparently more moved in to replace them. And some obviously never leave. Who is are all these families who ditch public for private at K or 5th grade?

That's not true. For the most part, the people who moved in haven't used the schools. DCs population shrunk for decades, before finally making a comeback during the Williams years. And DCPS only started to show any growth at all (even then, marginal) until a couple of years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But apparently more moved in to replace them. And some obviously never leave. Who is are all these families who ditch public for private at K or 5th grade?

That's not true. For the most part, the people who moved in haven't used the schools. DCs population shrunk for decades, before finally making a comeback during the Williams years. And DCPS only started to show any growth at all (even then, marginal) until a couple of years ago.

And, I would wager without knowing the numbers, that the "growth" in DCPS of a hand full of percentage points is PS/PK/K and that a SIGNIFICANT percentage of those families will still leave DC before even 3rd grade, much less staying for high school.

The conversation should be steered towards trying to keep those families, who pay taxes, glorious taxes, in the city, not drive them out.

DC's population did in fact shrink for decades, and while there has been growth recently, dismantling school assignment will have an impact on people's desire to stay within the city limits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of middle class families who would be thrilled if Deal and Wilson beams lottery schools. They're called OOB families and there are many.

And when your child doesn't win the lottery? The thrill will be over.

When my kid didn't win, I homeschooled that year and won the next. It's all a matter of flexibility. My experience is only anecdotal, but it's worked out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of middle class families who would be thrilled if Deal and Wilson beams lottery schools. They're called OOB families and there are many.

And when your child doesn't win the lottery? The thrill will be over.

When my kid didn't win, I homeschooled that year and won the next. It's all a matter of flexibility. My experience is only anecdotal, but it's worked out.

The anecdote is not so hopeful to the majority of people who work and are unable to homeschool, but glad that worked for you...thanks for sharing...