how to increase economic diversity in schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody's stopping you six-figure crybabies from home-schooling your children.

Nobody is stopping you from attending your neighborhood school.

And I'll let you in on a secret: We are already home-schooling our children. We used to do so full-time when they were toddlers, but now we home-school in the evenings and on weekends. Why do you think our children do so well in school?

This comment is key -- an educator once told me that supplemental education (that is, education at home in addition to the core school hours) correlates strongly with culture. Crudely and generally speaking, white and asian cultures in the U.S. are driven to educate at home because they do NOT expect the school system to do the whole job; whereas other cultures in the U.S. tend to expect "full service" from the school system. I would like to see some more studies on this; but if true it would support the belief that it is culture, not race or strictly speaking SES, that predicts for high academic achievement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody's stopping you six-figure crybabies from home-schooling your children.

Nobody is stopping you from attending your neighborhood school.

And I'll let you in on a secret: We are already home-schooling our children. We used to do so full-time when they were toddlers, but now we home-school in the evenings and on weekends. Why do you think our children do so well in school?

This comment is key -- an educator once told me that supplemental education (that is, education at home in addition to the core school hours) correlates strongly with culture. Crudely and generally speaking, white and asian cultures in the U.S. are driven to educate at home because they do NOT expect the school system to do the whole job; whereas other cultures in the U.S. tend to expect "full service" from the school system. I would like to see some more studies on this; but if true it would support the belief that it is culture, not race or strictly speaking SES, that predicts for high academic achievement.

+1

Education is a two way street. There are two key verbs in education: Teaching - the part that the teacher helps with, and studying - the part that the student has to do. Ultimately a big piece of the responsibility is on the student to do the learning, and on families to support that learning. But unfortunately a lot of families don't hold up their end of the bargain and abdicate their responsibilities. There's a lot more to success in school than just showing up. Yet, with policies in school that give kids passing grades even when they didn't work for them and didn't deserve them, and when they advance and graduate kids that couldn't be bothered to do the work, it sends a bad message.

And that applies to all other areas of life as well. You have to do your part in order to succeed. Merely showing up but then doing nothing should not entitle anyone to a meal and a roof over their head. The rest of us have to work hard for those things, the rest of us have to be responsible, have to plan, and have to fend for ourselves. The societal safety net is only supposed to be for those who truly have a compelling reason beyond their own control why they cannot support themselves, like the disabled or elderly. Needing support because you were an irresponsible teenager who got knocked up isn't a terribly compelling reason. Needing support because you can't hold down a job and keep getting fired because you can't manage to get yourself out of bed, have a bad attitude and are lazy at work isn't a terribly compelling reason.

We are cynical for a reason. The rest of us in the hard-working middle class are deeply fatigued when we have to witness this kind of thing day in and day out, and when we end up footing the bill for the irresponsibility of others. I have very little tolerance and sympathy for this kind of thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Does your neighborhood school have less than 20% FARMS? Congratulations! Your neighborhood is now the #1 place for mixed-income housing development in DC!

You say the low-income housing just won't look right in your neighborhood? Please see the Ellen Wilson "project" within Brent's neighborhood as an example of mixed-income housing that can fit in beautifully in a community.

As a percentage of all kids in DC, FARMS are way overrepresented in DCPS. If your goal is truly to increase economic diversity, the question should be, how do we attract more middle and high class kids to public schools and charters? The crazy ideas I am hearing, I am afraid, will DECREASE economic diversity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody's stopping you six-figure crybabies from home-schooling your children.

Nobody is stopping you from attending your neighborhood school.

And I'll let you in on a secret: We are already home-schooling our children. We used to do so full-time when they were toddlers, but now we home-school in the evenings and on weekends. Why do you think our children do so well in school?

This comment is key -- an educator once told me that supplemental education (that is, education at home in addition to the core school hours) correlates strongly with culture. Crudely and generally speaking, white and asian cultures in the U.S. are driven to educate at home because they do NOT expect the school system to do the whole job; whereas other cultures in the U.S. tend to expect "full service" from the school system. I would like to see some more studies on this; but if true it would support the belief that it is culture, not race or strictly speaking SES, that predicts for high academic achievement.

+1

Education is a two way street. There are two key verbs in education: Teaching - the part that the teacher helps with, and studying - the part that the student has to do. Ultimately a big piece of the responsibility is on the student to do the learning, and on families to support that learning. But unfortunately a lot of families don't hold up their end of the bargain and abdicate their responsibilities. There's a lot more to success in school than just showing up. Yet, with policies in school that give kids passing grades even when they didn't work for them and didn't deserve them, and when they advance and graduate kids that couldn't be bothered to do the work, it sends a bad message.

And that applies to all other areas of life as well. You have to do your part in order to succeed. Merely showing up but then doing nothing should not entitle anyone to a meal and a roof over their head. The rest of us have to work hard for those things, the rest of us have to be responsible, have to plan, and have to fend for ourselves. The societal safety net is only supposed to be for those who truly have a compelling reason beyond their own control why they cannot support themselves, like the disabled or elderly. Needing support because you were an irresponsible teenager who got knocked up isn't a terribly compelling reason. Needing support because you can't hold down a job and keep getting fired because you can't manage to get yourself out of bed, have a bad attitude and are lazy at work isn't a terribly compelling reason.

We are cynical for a reason. The rest of us in the hard-working middle class are deeply fatigued when we have to witness this kind of thing day in and day out, and when we end up footing the bill for the irresponsibility of others. I have very little tolerance and sympathy for this kind of thing.

What you say is so true and how it SHOULD work. The achilles heel ALWAYS to this "just take goddamn personal responsibility everyone!!" argument is that it would be fair and legitimate if all families started on basically the same starting line, on the same track, in the same race. If ALL parents had personal responsibility, appreciation for the importance of education (or even education as a non-negotiable), supplementing what happens in school at home... and a LACK of environmental stressors (violence, mental illness, neglect) that also totally impeded a PARENT's ability to model these things well, as well as a child's ability to function under the stress... If EVERY family started from the same basic starting line, then y es, the "Just step up and do what you know you're supposed to do for you and your kids" argument would be 100% fair and realistic.

But we all know everyone does not start on the same starting block, or on the same track, or even in the same damn race.

And this isn't a "boo hoo for the unfortunate" post. This is just about being realistic that it is an evidence-based fact that human nature is to model what you had modeled for you. Problem solving, relationships, values... it is MUCH MUCH MUCH HARDER to go against what was modeled for you (botht he good and the bad) than to look around your family and your community and then do something DIFFERENT than everyone you see. Sometimes including your teachers.

My mom died when I was 16 and I moved in with my dad in another state. I communted on public transportation to high school (I guess I was a residency cheat at that point) for 2 1.4 hrs EACH WAY for the remaining 1 1/2 yrs of school. I was exhausted, it sucked... but I was at a good public high school, thats' where all my friends were, and I'd just lost my mom. It was NEVER even a thought for me that I would drop out of school or leave school, I just had to make it work. Was tht because I'm some super special, dedicated, work-oriented human being? No. I had parents who'd drilled into me the importance of education and we'd gone through a lot for me to go to that school, so no way did it occur to me to leave. But that was what was MODELED for me.

PP and others like you, it always seems crystal clear to me that you have little or no exposure to the home lives of hte kids you're judging. I'm not talking poverty specifically, becaues there are plenty of poor families who work their asses off for their kids to get good or great educations, and who supplement however they can and who reinforce with their kids that they WILL finish high school and hopefully college. THat is hardly a unique value to middle and upper class families. But the family and environmental major dysfunctions, violence, substance abuse, neglect, gang violence, awful nutrition... PP did you really make all your "I did my part, why aren't you doing yours?" life decisions after going through those combinations of stressors? Because that is the reality of most of the families and kids who are really failing in school. That, combined with schools in the most stressed neighborhoods usually not having hte best teachers or the best supports that allow teachers to just teach (and not be social workers/discipline specialists).

I'm sorry, it is ignorant and totally unproductive to hold this "Take personal responsibility, that's what everyone else does" view as if everyone had basically the same starting point.

Starting point means everything, and it's so incomprehensibly difficult to go against all those negatives and DREAM UP or IMAGINE "Oh, schools aren't going to give my kid everything educationally that they need, I need to supplement. Hmmmm, I don't know myself a lot of what my kids needs to, so now I will dream up how to supplement my own knowledge while teaching my kid at home. Never mind our worries about where we'll live next week or the older kids who harass me and my kid every time we enter and leave the building."

Get real. If you want to hold everyone to some standard of personal accountability, make sure you are dealing with a level playing field to start with and everyone's on the same field. I'm sure the few things in your life you didn't know or have modeled for you, you didn't appreciate being held accountable in some impossible way for being supposed to have just "figured it out" on your own and done it. This conversation only gets real if we acknowledge that not everyone starts with the same toolbox or the same environment from which to engage as students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Right, you aren't stopping people from living in their own neighborhood and attending their schools-- but you aren't interested in integrating a few poor families into your neighborhood. And why is society pampering your phobia of poor people?

Why is society pampering the sense of entitlement of poor people?

Where is this pampering of which you speak? The working poor exist-- they work hard and contribute to your community just as much as others. Carving out a tiny bit of a neighborhood with no or very few poor families to provide some subsidized housing. They would still have to pay a portion of their salary to live in such housing-- that's how these things work. And they get evicted if they can't pay because they lost their job and can't find another one, smoke in their home, or are convicted of a crime. these mixed income housing developments are hardly "pampering" the poor.

[Anonymous]

I think the politics of race and class in america (and associated ideological positions) are very different from the issue/question of how to increase "diversity" in schools.

It occurs to me that a policy of school bussing, along with "expanding boundaries" of high-SES schools, is an "easy out" answer. There is little proof that those policies will have significant positive effect on the economic reality for entire categories of people. Arguably, there are two much better ways to encourage positive economic change for those most hurt by low-income life: (1) encourage more gentrification in low-income neighborhoods; (2) encourage and create (much) more affordable housing in high income neighborhoods.

[Anonymous]

So I am reading for every pook kid there should be a rich kid. Wow!!! May I ask, can all the rich black kids go to school together?

[Anonymous]

Here's why these discussions are so pointless. I have no interest in seeing an increase in economic diversity at my neighborhood school. I want a school full of kids ready and able to learn at the high (above grade) level that is a matter of course at our school. And if the DC Counsel or DCPS does anything to change this, I will sell my $1m house and move to Bethesda or Arlington so that I do have control over the % of FARMS kids at our school. And I am quite certain that a good number of my otherwise equally-liberal and culturally-aware neighbors will do the same, at least once their kids get to be around kindergarten age. And the D.C. Council is well aware of this, and has no interest in losing their highest-earning tax base. So it is just not going to happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's why these discussions are so pointless. I have no interest in seeing an increase in economic diversity at my neighborhood school. I want a school full of kids ready and able to learn at the high (above grade) level that is a matter of course at our school. And if the DC Counsel or DCPS does anything to change this, I will sell my $1m house and move to Bethesda or Arlington so that I do have control over the % of FARMS kids at our school. And I am quite certain that a good number of my otherwise equally-liberal and culturally-aware neighbors will do the same, at least once their kids get to be around kindergarten age. And the D.C. Council is well aware of this, and has no interest in losing their highest-earning tax base. So it is just not going to happen.

+1. Schools exist to educate, not to fix all the problems in the universe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I am reading for every pook kid there should be a rich kid. Wow!!! May I ask, can all the rich black kids go to school together?

Banneker prolly has the most -- and a great school, too. The really rich ones wouldn't even consider DCPS, just like most of the really rich everyone else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody's stopping you six-figure crybabies from home-schooling your children.

Nobody is stopping you from attending your neighborhood school.

And I'll let you in on a secret: We are already home-schooling our children. We used to do so full-time when they were toddlers, but now we home-school in the evenings and on weekends. Why do you think our children do so well in school?

This comment is key -- an educator once told me that supplemental education (that is, education at home in addition to the core school hours) correlates strongly with culture. Crudely and generally speaking, white and asian cultures in the U.S. are driven to educate at home because they do NOT expect the school system to do the whole job; whereas other cultures in the U.S. tend to expect "full service" from the school system. I would like to see some more studies on this; but if true it would support the belief that it is culture, not race or strictly speaking SES, that predicts for high academic achievement.

+1

Education is a two way street. There are two key verbs in education: Teaching - the part that the teacher helps with, and studying - the part that the student has to do. Ultimately a big piece of the responsibility is on the student to do the learning, and on families to support that learning. But unfortunately a lot of families don't hold up their end of the bargain and abdicate their responsibilities. There's a lot more to success in school than just showing up. Yet, with policies in school that give kids passing grades even when they didn't work for them and didn't deserve them, and when they advance and graduate kids that couldn't be bothered to do the work, it sends a bad message.

And that applies to all other areas of life as well. You have to do your part in order to succeed. Merely showing up but then doing nothing should not entitle anyone to a meal and a roof over their head. The rest of us have to work hard for those things, the rest of us have to be responsible, have to plan, and have to fend for ourselves. The societal safety net is only supposed to be for those who truly have a compelling reason beyond their own control why they cannot support themselves, like the disabled or elderly. Needing support because you were an irresponsible teenager who got knocked up isn't a terribly compelling reason. Needing support because you can't hold down a job and keep getting fired because you can't manage to get yourself out of bed, have a bad attitude and are lazy at work isn't a terribly compelling reason.

We are cynical for a reason. The rest of us in the hard-working middle class are deeply fatigued when we have to witness this kind of thing day in and day out, and when we end up footing the bill for the irresponsibility of others. I have very little tolerance and sympathy for this kind of thing.

What you say is so true and how it SHOULD work. The achilles heel ALWAYS to this "just take goddamn personal responsibility everyone!!" argument is that it would be fair and legitimate if all families started on basically the same starting line, on the same track, in the same race. If ALL parents had personal responsibility, appreciation for the importance of education (or even education as a non-negotiable), supplementing what happens in school at home... and a LACK of environmental stressors (violence, mental illness, neglect) that also totally impeded a PARENT's ability to model these things well, as well as a child's ability to function under the stress... If EVERY family started from the same basic starting line, then y es, the "Just step up and do what you know you're supposed to do for you and your kids" argument would be 100% fair and realistic.

But we all know everyone does not start on the same starting block, or on the same track, or even in the same damn race.

And this isn't a "boo hoo for the unfortunate" post. This is just about being realistic that it is an evidence-based fact that human nature is to model what you had modeled for you. Problem solving, relationships, values... it is MUCH MUCH MUCH HARDER to go against what was modeled for you (botht he good and the bad) than to look around your family and your community and then do something DIFFERENT than everyone you see. Sometimes including your teachers.

My mom died when I was 16 and I moved in with my dad in another state. I communted on public transportation to high school (I guess I was a residency cheat at that point) for 2 1.4 hrs EACH WAY for the remaining 1 1/2 yrs of school. I was exhausted, it sucked... but I was at a good public high school, thats' where all my friends were, and I'd just lost my mom. It was NEVER even a thought for me that I would drop out of school or leave school, I just had to make it work. Was tht because I'm some super special, dedicated, work-oriented human being? No. I had parents who'd drilled into me the importance of education and we'd gone through a lot for me to go to that school, so no way did it occur to me to leave. But that was what was MODELED for me.

PP and others like you, it always seems crystal clear to me that you have little or no exposure to the home lives of hte kids you're judging. I'm not talking poverty specifically, becaues there are plenty of poor families who work their asses off for their kids to get good or great educations, and who supplement however they can and who reinforce with their kids that they WILL finish high school and hopefully college. THat is hardly a unique value to middle and upper class families. But the family and environmental major dysfunctions, violence, substance abuse, neglect, gang violence, awful nutrition... PP did you really make all your "I did my part, why aren't you doing yours?" life decisions after going through those combinations of stressors? Because that is the reality of most of the families and kids who are really failing in school. That, combined with schools in the most stressed neighborhoods usually not having hte best teachers or the best supports that allow teachers to just teach (and not be social workers/discipline specialists).

I'm sorry, it is ignorant and totally unproductive to hold this "Take personal responsibility, that's what everyone else does" view as if everyone had basically the same starting point.

Starting point means everything, and it's so incomprehensibly difficult to go against all those negatives and DREAM UP or IMAGINE "Oh, schools aren't going to give my kid everything educationally that they need, I need to supplement. Hmmmm, I don't know myself a lot of what my kids needs to, so now I will dream up how to supplement my own knowledge while teaching my kid at home. Never mind our worries about where we'll live next week or the older kids who harass me and my kid every time we enter and leave the building."

Get real. If you want to hold everyone to some standard of personal accountability, make sure you are dealing with a level playing field to start with and everyone's on the same field. I'm sure the few things in your life you didn't know or have modeled for you, you didn't appreciate being held accountable in some impossible way for being supposed to have just "figured it out" on your own and done it. This conversation only gets real if we acknowledge that not everyone starts with the same toolbox or the same environment from which to engage as students.

PP here, and I think you are judging with some majorly mistaken preconceptions of your own. As it happens, I was a FARMS student myself, raised by a single mom, we grew up in poverty, a lot of my meals growing up were things like beans, rice and cheap macaroni because that's all we could afford. I did not come from any background of privilege. I did not come from any special starting point. Yet, I made it happen. If I could make it happen then it's possible for anyone else. It's time to stop making all of these empty excuses. The fact that I came from a background of poverty myself is what makes me particularly cynical whenever I hear these things. I tend to think I have a far better idea of what it takes than you do, because I have actually lived it and made it happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's why these discussions are so pointless. I have no interest in seeing an increase in economic diversity at my neighborhood school. I want a school full of kids ready and able to learn at the high (above grade) level that is a matter of course at our school. And if the DC Counsel or DCPS does anything to change this, I will sell my $1m house and move to Bethesda or Arlington so that I do have control over the % of FARMS kids at our school. And I am quite certain that a good number of my otherwise equally-liberal and culturally-aware neighbors will do the same, at least once their kids get to be around kindergarten age. And the D.C. Council is well aware of this, and has no interest in losing their highest-earning tax base. So it is just not going to happen.

You are right if you are so rich to afforda million dollar house there is no point in trying to make the world any better or contaminating your child or your life with FARMs. You have bought the privelege. But here is the reality, however you got that money that allows you to have a million dollar house, your lifestyle needs a prosperous economy. That does not happen without educated people, that means we need to figure out some things that are not always conveinent to you. So yes go buy yourself some privelege whereever you want but understand you are also part of the problem. No one is suggesting busing here, but it may be worth considering giving some poor kids an out to crappy schools if for nothing else the stock portfolio you planning on putting in your snowflakes trustfund.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How about coming up with a solution that makes low-income earners better able to earn higher incomes?

No, no, no DC likes to import knowledge. We need to keep DC wage earners dumb and uneducated so they will serve all the smart people with the good jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How about coming up with a solution that makes low-income earners better able to earn higher incomes?

No, no, no DC likes to import knowledge. We need to keep DC wage earners dumb and uneducated so they will serve all the smart people with the good jobs.

We already have a solution. It's called "education." Trouble is, you have to avail yourself of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nobody's stopping you six-figure crybabies from home-schooling your children.

Nobody is stopping you from attending your neighborhood school.

And I'll let you in on a secret: We are already home-schooling our children. We used to do so full-time when they were toddlers, but now we home-school in the evenings and on weekends. Why do you think our children do so well in school?

This comment is key -- an educator once told me that supplemental education (that is, education at home in addition to the core school hours) correlates strongly with culture. Crudely and generally speaking, white and asian cultures in the U.S. are driven to educate at home because they do NOT expect the school system to do the whole job; whereas other cultures in the U.S. tend to expect "full service" from the school system. I would like to see some more studies on this; but if true it would support the belief that it is culture, not race or strictly speaking SES, that predicts for high academic achievement.

This is news to me and I am an Asian immigrant. I don't know any Asians that "homeschool". All my Asian friends and I got nagged a lot and were told to get good grades but other than that my parents did not help with homework or even read to us. Their English wasn't good anyway. Asians expect their kids to work hard but leave educating to the professionals.