TJ Kids that needed remedial math

[Anonymous]

Loved the links above--especially the article from the TJ student.

The facts are clear: the test was changed in order to get more Hispanics and African Americans.
The result of the change: Many of the WRONG Asians and Whites were admitted and remedial work is now required.

Another fact: FCPS hired a FULLTIME admissions officer whose purpose is to admit more Blacks and Hispanics to TJ.
It's not working-so why is FCPS spending the money? Shouldn't the purpose just be to get the BEST students?

My opinion: relocate the admissions officer and give the toughest test possible to the applicants.
Any student at TJ who needs ESOL instruction or ANY kind of remedial instruction should be sent back to the base school. The same goes for any kind of Special education instruction to include ED. TJ is not the place for those with special needs (with the exception of physical).

[Anonymous]

What really needs to happen is TJ needs to be for a limited geographical area. Why are they taking kids from Loudoun, Fauquier, etc? There just aren't enough places at TJ to handle all the smart kids, and so many well-qualified ones don't get in. If STEM is the now and future, why aren't we building more schools for this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Loved the links above--especially the article from the TJ student.

The facts are clear: the test was changed in order to get more Hispanics and African Americans.
The result of the change: Many of the WRONG Asians and Whites were admitted and remedial work is now required.

Another fact: FCPS hired a FULLTIME admissions officer whose purpose is to admit more Blacks and Hispanics to TJ.
It's not working-so why is FCPS spending the money? Shouldn't the purpose just be to get the BEST students?

My opinion: relocate the admissions officer and give the toughest test possible to the applicants.
Any student at TJ who needs ESOL instruction or ANY kind of remedial instruction should be sent back to the base school. The same goes for any kind of Special education instruction to include ED. TJ is not the place for those with special needs (with the exception of physical).

Only perfect snowflakes need apply.

[Anonymous]

STEM is important and it is the future--but the scientists need to be able to communicate and work well with others. They also need to have some management skills. I'm not talking just about command of the language, I am talking about how to deal with all kinds of people.

As far as limiting the geographic area for TJ, the other counties contribute money. FCPS already puts extra money into TJ. While it may be worthwhile, it cannot be done at the expense of students across the county. Not in these economic times.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To many qualified students have been turned away from TJ to allow students who need help in remedial math to take their places. There are 10 students who were denied a space for every remedial student at TJ. That is why this year, an independednt panel is deciding. Long over due IMHO.

The admission process became too political. Many years ago, math take half of the weight in the admission test. Now language take up 2/3. It is not a surprise that some kids are getting weaker in math.

And you know why they did this? To admit less Asians. They were getting too many Asians, so they changed the admissions to count Math less and language more, including more emphasis on the essays, hoping it would make it harder on Asians. And I think it worked. Obviously, there are still a lot of Asians there, but I think there would be even more without the change.

Except for the fact that the number of asians in TJ has been growing steadily since they made the changes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What really needs to happen is TJ needs to be for a limited geographical area. Why are they taking kids from Loudoun, Fauquier, etc? There just aren't enough places at TJ to handle all the smart kids, and so many well-qualified ones don't get in. If STEM is the now and future, why aren't we building more schools for this?

They have to take kids from other counties in order to be considered a "Governor's School".

http://www.doe.virginia.gov/instruction/governors_school_programs/index.shtml

[Anonymous]

I think the County should make it somebody's job to do a study comparing the application packages (test scores, grades, essays, teacher recs) of students needing math help to those who did not. The results of a survey of student participation in TJ prep classes in seventh and eighth grades should also be used to compare the two groups. It would be useful to find any commonalities among the group needing extra help in order to move forward to find students who have the best chance of being successful at TJ in the future.

We can speculate about the situation but only a real study of the facts will lead to a good answer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My child goes to TJ. There are a few things going on here. First, there are no kids at TJ in "remedial math". What that article referred to was the fact that 1/3 of last year's freshman class had a B average or below which meant they were on the academic watch list and were receiving extra tutoring (students must maintain a 3.0 GPA to stay at TJ). The low grades in the math classes were partially due to the vast majority of students entering TJ having already taken Geometry in middle school, as opposed to just a few years ago when most students took Geometry in 9th grade at TJ. Since classes at TJ are taught at a higher, more accelerated level, the students who had already taken Geometry weren't as well prepared for the Algebra 2/precalculus curriculum as they were in the past. Also, many of the newer math teachers do not give partial credit for test answers that may have been done correctly, except for perhaps missing the correct units or reversing a sign.

I agree with the article that the admissions process is not designed to select math geniuses. The math portion of the admissions test only counts for 20% of the final decision while test essays and the student information sheet (which this year was 3 very subjective essays given under controlled testing conditions) count for 45% of the final decision score. There seems to be a disconnect between the admissions office and the school staff as to what kind of student they believe belongs at the school. For example, the biology teachers design tests that reward rote memorization of picky little points (ie: what's the chemical formula for this one particular enzyme), instead of testing on the overarching concepts and problem-solving. But the admissions office seems to be selecting students who have a strong interest in STEM, as well as being more holistic thinkers - these students are not doing well on these tests, and the overwhelming majority of their grades is based on tests and quizzes, not labs.

The majority of TJ freshman even a few years ago took Honors Geometry in GT/AAP centers. Do base school students who took Honors Geometry in middle school and have a B or C get after school tutoring and extra payments for teachers? No. So send them back to the base school.

[Anonymous]

Also reversing a sign changes the number. That's not like forgetting to put a $ .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I think the County should make it somebody's job to do a study comparing the application packages (test scores, grades, essays, teacher recs) of students needing math help to those who did not. The results of a survey of student participation in TJ prep classes in seventh and eighth grades should also be used to compare the two groups. It would be useful to find any commonalities among the group needing extra help in order to move forward to find students who have the best chance of being successful at TJ in the future.

We can speculate about the situation but only a real study of the facts will lead to a good answer.

Sounds like a good idea. I'm not sure FCPS wants to know the answers, though.

[Anonymous]

Many thanks to the TJ parents for explaining the "remedial math" situation. My DC is currently a semifinalist, so I really appreciate the insight.

Do you think there is any way to tell which kids will struggle with precalc? DC has gotten straight A's so far (currently in geometry), but eeryone's natural ability has a ceiling somewhere.

[Anonymous]

FCPS should have more STEM academies. This would provide other options for students who want to pursue STEM but do not want to (or cannot meet requirements to) go to TJ.

[Anonymous]

I just find it sad that 11-13 y/o kids are sacrificing their other extracurricular activities (as did my friend's child) in order to take "TJ Prep" classes for 2 straight years. If these kids are then going on to have difficulties at TJ for the next 4 years - it just isn't worth it! Life is tough enough as an adult, why go through so much stress at such a young age and potentially burn out even before you hit college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To many qualified students have been turned away from TJ to allow students who need help in remedial math to take their places. There are 10 students who were denied a space for every remedial student at TJ. That is why this year, an independednt panel is deciding. Long over due IMHO.

The admission process became too political. Many years ago, math take half of the weight in the admission test. Now language take up 2/3. It is not a surprise that some kids are getting weaker in math.

And you know why they did this? To admit less Asians. They were getting too many Asians, so they changed the admissions to count Math less and language more, including more emphasis on the essays, hoping it would make it harder on Asians. And I think it worked. Obviously, there are still a lot of Asians there, but I think there would be even more without the change.

Does the full name of the school have the word "language" in it? If it counts for 2/3's of the admission process, maybe it should.

[Anonymous]

Breakdown of TJ admission process:

Math score from admissions test= 20%
Math and Science GPA= 15%

So, that's 35% that is directly math and science related, and you might think okay, roughly one third, so "language must be the other two thirds."

But then you have,

Teacher recommendation= 20%
One rec must be from a math or science teacher from 7th or 8th grade. The other rec can be from any other 7th or 8th grade teacher, but many students choose another math or science teacher. The teacher recs address the student's performance in their math and/or science classes and the student's demonstrated interest in math and/or science.

Student Information Sheet= 20%
Students write about their interest in math and science in the SIS, giving specific examples of the depth of their participation in math and science related activities.

Essays= 25%
The essays are about writing, obviously, but the topics are not questions about literature or history. The questions are math and science related and sometimes have an ethical issue to consider.

Here's how the last three items are evaluated (from the TJ site):

The student’s essays, student information sheet, and teacher recommendations are reviewed in three separate evaluation processes. In each of these separate processes, all semifinalists are randomly assigned to a team of two trained educators who independently evaluate the materials using rubrics designed specifically for that evaluation. A third reader is available to review materials, when necessary, and final ratings then are based on the two highest evaluations given to the applicant.

So, while 35% of the decision process can be seen to be directly math and science related, the other 65% is actually quite related to math and science, and is meant to show how the student participates in and thinks about math and science.

Sorry this is so long, but I do think it helps to see a full picture of the process.