Parents of 10th and 11th graders...AP question

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What browns me off is that, in addition to having to show some APs on the college application, a lot of colleges also want SAT IIs in the same subject. Why? If DD has good scores in AP Govt, World History, and Calculus, why do some colleges also require 2-3 SAT IIs in, wait for it, Govt, World History, and Math? Why, oh why?

Sorry, just finished paying for DD to register for all these. Maybe I'll ask this question on the College Forum. I'll grumpily pay for it all, but what really gets me is the additional stress on kids who have to take what seem like duplicative tests.

I think it is to facilitate "apples to apples" comparisons. Your kid's A minus in her World History class may be in a more competitive environment than a child in a less academically competitive area. Your child should logically do a lot better on the SAT II than that other student. Conversely, the kid with the A+ in the course from a poor school system who gets an 800 on the SAT II subject test will be "validating" her good classroom grade. I also think more colleges want to see SAT II tests (they like at least 2, generally) than require APs. Lastly, from observation, once the kid has studied for the AP they don't have to study more for the SAT II test and most of them think the SAT II test is fairly easy.

I kind of get this but most colleges assign regions to their admissions officers who get to know the schools very, very well. They don't compare kids from different schools, they look at applicants within the context of their current school. So maybe if there was an outlier from a school that is new on the radar but this is a long way to go for that reason.

All that money you are paying for the tests? Thats the reason. This is a big business.

The colleges don't get money from the testing regime. And while a college may know many schools in a given area they are not familiar with all of them. How well do you think a school like Cal Berkeley or UCLA knows Holton or Stone Ridge? The tests help with comparisons.

I think the admissions officers from Cal and UCLA assigned to the DC region know those schools extremely well. I was at a college night at my DC's private and the admissions officer from USC was there, and he not only knew the school but was familiar with specific courses. And I never said the colleges make the money. Its the testing services, the organizations that create and own the tests, that make out like bandits.

Yes, but it is the colleges that require the SAT II tests. They don't make any money off it. So while the testing game is quite lucrative for the private companies, the money angle doesn't explain why colleges ask for the SAT II. Yet they still require it -- because they see it as a useful comparative tool. In general, the SAT IIs are seen as more content based as opposed to the SATs, which are more about logic/analytical ability within the standardized test framework. Why not accept an AP test instead? I agree, that is a good question. I would surmise it might have to do with the fact that there are more gradations on the SAT II (800 point scale) than on the AP (5 point scale), but don't know for sure.

[Anonymous]

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And you seem to be whining. (Read the dispatch from Asia, above, for a great description of a real pressure cooker of an educational atmosphere.) Why it is some tragedy (or even a problem of the most minor variety) that kids who CHOOSE to take the AP while pursuing admission to the most selective colleges will also take an SAT subject test in the same subject? They don't have to study new material. They just spend three additional hours, about four weeks later, torn away from Facebook/YouTube to take the test.

Aren't the subject tests just one hour each? My DC is taking one in June after the AP test and I was under the impression they were only an hour each. Since DC is only in 10th grade he's not ready for the other tests yet so is only taking a single subject.

Yeppers, if they take three SAT IIs (one more than Yale requires), it's three hours total.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:While I agree that the double testing is annoying there are a couple of mitigating factors. First, AP scores are not actually requested by colleges until after you are accepted. They typically aren't part of the application but are used for placement purposes. Second, you don't get scores from senior year APs until well after the school year is over. So if you take AP Calc senior year you'd still need to take the SAT math test earlier. Third, SAT 2's aren't actually required by that many colleges anymore, although obviously still by the most competitive colleges. I believe only 1 still requires 3 SAT 2s.

As for the value of AP classes - it is not just about college admissions. At our school they tend to be classes with smart engaged teachers and students. So they are good classes even if there is some teaching to the test (which frankly isn't that bad even in public school).

The part I bolded is interesting - it was news to me, thanks. DC hasn't actually applied anywhere yet, she's a junior. DC took one AP test sophomore year and will take 4 more this year (junior year), so would have several AP results. But if the colleges don't request these, the point is moot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While I agree that the double testing is annoying there are a couple of mitigating factors. First, AP scores are not actually requested by colleges until after you are accepted. They typically aren't part of the application but are used for placement purposes. Second, you don't get scores from senior year APs until well after the school year is over. So if you take AP Calc senior year you'd still need to take the SAT math test earlier. Third, SAT 2's aren't actually required by that many colleges anymore, although obviously still by the most competitive colleges. I believe only 1 still requires 3 SAT 2s.

As for the value of AP classes - it is not just about college admissions. At our school they tend to be classes with smart engaged teachers and students. So they are good classes even if there is some teaching to the test (which frankly isn't that bad even in public school).

The part I bolded is interesting - it was news to me, thanks. DC hasn't actually applied anywhere yet, she's a junior. DC took one AP test sophomore year and will take 4 more this year (junior year), so would have several AP results. But if the colleges don't request these, the point is moot.

It's what we were told by our college counselor. Of course not to say that scores won't come up in interviews or that one can't add them to the application in some way if the scores are 5's.