The High Cost of Low Teacher Salaries

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I don't know why there is all this negativity and disrespect towards teachers. Is it jealousy that they get the summers off? "

Maybe the fact they get summers off, every imaginable holiday, great benefits, and STILL complain how underpaid they are. Don't get me wrong, I think most teachers do a fantastic job and deserve all the pay/benefits they have. But when you hear the constant complaining it makes you wonder if they really know what it's like for the rest of us. Teachers seem to think the grass is so much greener here in the private sector. I get 15 combined vacation/sick days, 9 paid holidays, pay over $9 per year for my family health insurance, and my 401k match was stopped last year. I make $60k with a masters degree. We laid off 15 people in the past 3 months and I feel lucky to still have a job. Things are tough all over, yet many teachers see themselves as a special, untouchable group entitled to benefits & compensation that just doesn't make sense in these economic times.

[Anonymous]

To the compensation point - teachers focus mostly on what they are paid and very little on the value of their benefits. Benefits aren't free and it's a fact that school/public sector benefits are much more generous than the current private sector benefits in most industries. If teachers wanted to swap some benefits for income, I doubt many would object - say moving from a pension to a fix contribution 401K system. But you can't just keep saying we need more money for higher salaries while the benefits in particular are at unsustainably high levels for the county and state. The math just doesn't work and MD is already a very high-tax place. The answer is not simply to keep ratcheting up taxes to fund ever higher benefit packages.

It's a great point about the benefits. A large part of the reason we had to bail out the auto companies was because of unsustainable benefits promises. But suggest converting to a defined contribution plan, or that teachers pay a small portion of their health insurance costs, and it's like you asked for their firstborn.

Fact - high end benefits packages (especially defined benefit plans) have become unsustainable for public sector employees. There's no way around it. So if you say, "I have to keep my pension!" you better come up with some way to pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Fact - high end benefits packages (especially defined benefit plans) have become unsustainable for public sector employees.

It's the benefit packages that are squeezing teachers and others on salary. So if the most important part is salary, then tell your union to be more flexible on benefits. If you want to protect a benefits package that is better than the vast majority in the private sector, well that comes at a cost and money is no longer growing on trees as it did during the run-up in housing prices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think teachers are greedy. I just think they like to complain. "

Teachers are among those with the lowest SAT scores.

And do you think we'll continue to attract the best and the brightest with such lousy pay and lack of respect from people like you?

[AngryTeacher]

Is this enough information?

http://www.ednews.org/articles/teacher-retention-a-critical-national-problem.html

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Ug5LpiUGkBsJ:www.ncsu.edu/mentorjunction/text_files/teacher_retentionsymposium.pdf+teacher+retention+within+the+first+5+years&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiWGGICJExfpMA4HOLQTnwgG2dGpZZj0zYu9rDiouGJYFu1HDrfUHcTzkcfXOyfjD6-kc3vOpuRM8rK6SZ7hrmt6doxfwN9nYtetB2nCKJOc8jZYOypdQtoWQVCMCS-i5OzcEdh&sig=AHIEtbQXHxYDlU_7fji9FRl7IsQcSAS-wg

In general, the turnover rate among teachers is significantly higher than for other
occupations.1 The fact is, an alarming and unsustainable number of teachers are leaving
teaching during their first few years of teaching. The No Child Left Behind Act has
stimulated a national effort to find highly qualified teachers for every classroom. But no
teacher supply strategy will ever keep our classrooms staffed with quality teachers if we
do not reverse the debilitating rate of teacher attrition. We need to balance our efforts to
prepare high quality teachers with strong strategies to support good teaching in our
schools.

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/almost-40-percent-metro-teachers-quit-within-first-five-years-job

http://www.p12.nysed.gov/specialed/publications/persprep/qualityteachers/retention.htm

Anonymous wrote:

We are losing some of the most promising young people to early burn out.

I haven't seen much data to support this statement in terms of people leaving teaching to do a different job. All the teachers I know that quit left to be SAHMs and most plan to go back once their kids are in school. Most teachers are women and start young - I think that it's normal to expect that a sizable % of them will leave to stay w/ their kids for a few years.

To the compensation point - teachers focus mostly on what they are paid and very little on the value of their benefits. Benefits aren't free and it's a fact that school/public sector benefits are much more generous than the current private sector benefits in most industries. If teachers wanted to swap some benefits for income, I doubt many would object - say moving from a pension to a fix contribution 401K system. But you can't just keep saying we need more money for higher salaries while the benefits in particular are at unsustainably high levels for the county and state. The math just doesn't work and MD is already a very high-tax place. The answer is not simply to keep ratcheting up taxes to fund ever higher benefit packages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think teachers are greedy. I just think they like to complain. "

Teachers are among those with the lowest SAT scores.

And do you think we'll continue to attract the best and the brightest with such lousy pay and lack of respect from people like you?

Hopefully we can attract ones who complain less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Well yes because they work 180-190 days a year compared to 300+ for the private sector. I would be willing to take a massive pay cut (from my $50k/year job with my masters degree) to have summers off but then I would just get fired. "

Ditto. Plus Winter and Spring Breaks!!!! Awesome.

People always say this. The 180 days (or it usually ends up being 184-188 days depending) are the days that teachers are with students. That doesn't include non instructional days (i.e. in-service days). So add in those days plus in-service days during the school year and days at the beginning of the school year that are used for training/classroom setup most teachers. The amount of days for that vary, but it's typically about 2 weeks. So most teachers probably work at least 225 days or more a year. And I know this comment will be flamed, but despite what everyone says most teachers also spend hours outside of instructional hours for planning/prepping/grading. Most teachers work from at least 7am to 5pm or so even though they are only paid for instructional hours.

Teachers work all day non-stop as well. It's not like a desk job where you can take a few minutes to check your email, play solitaire, or get on DCUM to check the latest gossip. Teachers are "on-stage" all day.

Some teachers have summers off, most most teachers work a second job during the summer, or work the summer program at their school if one is offered. Other teachers use the summers for training and taking classes to fulfill the continuing education credits that are required to keep their teaching certificates. They may take some time off, but they aren't spending the whole 2 months sitting around doing nothing.

As far as breaks go, how much vacation time do people in other professions get? For teachers, that is their vacation time. They don't get to take vacations at other times during the year so there is little flexibility.

Overall I think the teaching profession evens out with most other professions. Calling them lazy and stupid or flaming the little time they have off isn't going to fix our education system.

[Anonymous]

I think the teaching profession evens out with most other professions.

I agree. I don't think teachers are overcompensated in salary/vacation balance (benefits are another issue but are not unique to teachers) but most teachers argue that that's the case.

To the attrition question, my mom taught for many many years. What ultimately soured her on teaching and made her swear off it was not the pay level but dealing w/ problematic kids constantly w/ no back-up from the principal (who tended to side w/ parents and not the teachers) and parents who thought their "angel" could do no wrong. This was a city high school. It was the working conditions - as in, how troublesome students are dealt w/ and the administration's ability/desire to push back against parents upset that their kid was in trouble - that was the worst part. I would suspect this is a big problem for many of those who leave too - particularly given the higher turn over rate in city schools - it's not as if the pay conditions are a surprise to people entering the field, but I think the challenge of dealing w/ troubled kids and the varying levels of support teachers get w/ this is a big issue and more money would not fix that.

[Anonymous]

Overall I think the teaching profession evens out with most other professions. Calling them lazy and stupid or flaming the little time they have off isn't going to fix our education system.

That is certainly true. But neither are rants about how it is unconscionable to even consider cutting teachers' salaries and/or benefits, without proposing some alternatives. I am much more sympathetic to teachers than my posts on this board would indicate - but AT and other posters like her just make me cringe.

[AngryTeacher]

I make you cringe? really?

So you fear me? cower in my presence?

uh - Maybe you should have used another word.

Honestly, I don't need your sympathy, nor are we - as a group - asking for sympathy. My main concern is being able to care for my family - especially since we're a two-teacher household. But that's not your concern.

So let me address an issue that WILL affect you directly, PP.

Aside from my selfishness (b/c heaven forbid teachers should be a bit selfish in wanting to provide for their own children), I am worried about high turnover, which will only become worse b/c of these cuts. Today I discovered that two other promising - and very young - new teachers resigned. I don't expect their shoes to be filled by someone who will stay longer than a year.

As this trend continues, you will see a decline in services, which will dramatically affect classroom instruction. It has already begun. Classrooms are exploding. Teachers - especially at the elementary level - don't have the help they need. Parent volunteers are shrinking b/c no one can afford time off from work. SPED and ESOL teachers don't have the resources to provide adequate instruction to these struggling students. Graduation rates will decline. The gap between the red and green zones will only become larger, and the list goes on and on.

UNLESS we make education a priority, pray that your inheritence will be enough to pay for private school. Or perhaps homeschooling is in your future.

Fondly,
AT

Anonymous wrote:

Overall I think the teaching profession evens out with most other professions. Calling them lazy and stupid or flaming the little time they have off isn't going to fix our education system.

That is certainly true. But neither are rants about how it is unconscionable to even consider cutting teachers' salaries and/or benefits, without proposing some alternatives. I am much more sympathetic to teachers than my posts on this board would indicate - but AT and other posters like her just make me cringe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think teachers are greedy. I just think they like to complain. "

Teachers are among those with the lowest SAT scores.

And do you think we'll continue to attract the best and the brightest with such lousy pay and lack of respect from people like you?

Hopefully we can attract ones who complain less.

Tee hee.

[Anonymous]

obviously another poster who's quite brilliant

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"I don't think teachers are greedy. I just think they like to complain. "

Teachers are among those with the lowest SAT scores.

And do you think we'll continue to attract the best and the brightest with such lousy pay and lack of respect from people like you?

Hopefully we can attract ones who complain less.

Tee hee.[/quote]

[Anonymous]

I make you cringe? really?

So you fear me? cower in my presence?

uh - Maybe you should have used another word.

Uh - maybe you should have kept on reading the definition . . . then you would have gotten to the part about recoiling in distaste. (I'm guessing you're not an english teacher.) Isn't it a drag when you try to act intellectually superior, screw it up and get called out?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cringe

[AngryTeacher]

I am aware of its many definitions. I prefer the second, however, from Merriam-Webster. (BTW - Usually the first two definitions of a word are the ones widely used.)


-AT

Anonymous wrote:

I make you cringe? really?

So you fear me? cower in my presence?

uh - Maybe you should have used another word.

Uh - maybe you should have kept on reading the definition . . . then you would have gotten to the part about recoiling in distaste. (I'm guessing you're not an english teacher.) Isn't it a drag when you try to act intellectually superior, screw it up and get called out?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cringe

[AngryTeacher]

Also, the properly educated know that English is a proper noun that should be capitalized.

Fondly,
AT (English teacher)

Anonymous wrote:

I make you cringe? really?

So you fear me? cower in my presence?

uh - Maybe you should have used another word.

Uh - maybe you should have kept on reading the definition . . . then you would have gotten to the part about recoiling in distaste. (I'm guessing you're not an english teacher.) Isn't it a drag when you try to act intellectually superior, screw it up and get called out?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cringe