Do Montgomery County HGC and magnet programs ever "counsel out" students who are struggling?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sam2 I wanted to clarify something you wrote in an earlier post.

You said that HGCs push children to work 2 to 3 years ahead. To clarify, the kids are naturally capable of working several grades ahead and the HGCs exist to meet their needs and provide an appropriate curriculum.

In fact for many 2-3 years ahead would still not meet their needs. My DD entered the HGC in 4th grade reading an eighth grade level (or perhaps higher since that's as far as the elementary teacher could assess....) and left in 5th grade having tested at a late college/graduate school reading level. Never in her life has she been assigned a challenging book in school unless it was one she selected for herself for a independent project. And, I know that there were many peers at the HGC reading at a high school level or greater. So, I agree w/ PP that "pushing" is not really what happens at an HGC. Most are already there.

Am I correct in thinking you have a blog on your DC's experience?

I think this is kind of odd.

At a certain point, it's not the level of the books you read. What I mean is -- in the HGC my kid read books that were young adult books for the most part, so below my own "reading level," yet even I found them thought provoking and engaging. No, they weren't reading DeLillo and David Foster Wallace but I think they were challenging in terms of the way they were asked to interpret the content and think about the writing. It was the discussion that was important.

So to me, that doesn't mean that the program isn't meeting their needs. Sure, we all choose to read different things in our spare time and thank goodness there's a library full of books so we can find things that interest us. But once you get to a certain level, I don't think we pick books because they are written at a "late college/graduate school reading level."

[SAM2]

Many thanks for the various thoughtful comments from yesterday afternoon. I appreciate it.

I noted a seeming inconsistency between (1) allegedly imperfect tests, and (2) seemingly no underqualified children in gifted/magnet programs. It seems what several people are responding is that there actually is no inconsistency because the combination of admissions requirements for gifted programs (standardized test + teacher evaluations + grades + parent statement) ensures that no underqualified students are admitted. I'm summarizing, so certainly some nuance is lost, but isn't that essentially what people are saying?

If so, that makes some sense to me. Certainly a combination of admissions factors (test + teacher rec + grades + parent statement) should be more accurate than just the raw test score. But I'm still a little curious that the process seemingly never misfires. Yes, I know some people noted that some few children leave because of issues like organization issues and personal tragedy, but no one identifies students who "overperform" on admissions, and then lag on later academics. Does it make logical sense that the selection process is essentially flawless? When I read academic literature on identification of gifted and talented youth, many researchers struggle with finding ways to accurately identify them. But if the simple step of including teacher evaluations and grades in the mix leads to near-perfect accuracy, then why would they struggle so much? Thinking statistically, even if the selection process is very good, wouldn't we all expect about 10-20% of the students to struggle? Wouldn't it be odd if nearly all of them are earning only As and Bs?

I appreciate your comments. Also, just to be crystal clear: I am not criticizing the gifted/magnet programs or anyone's children; I am not making some subtle comment about public versus private education; I am not trying to comment on whether gifted children should be accelerated; I am not trying to debate the "plasticity of IQ"! I'm simply trying to understand what's behind an odd inconsistency. TIA.

[Anonymous]

I think the process misfires more in that it MISSES kids who could benefit from a gifted program and would do better there than in their home school. I think there are a LOT of those kids.

And I don't think it's that odd that very few struggle because of the level of the work, considering how much winnowing down occurs in the application process.

I also don't think it's such a struggle to identify GT youth. Rather, there's a disagreement about what the cutoff is. The gifted magnet application process does away with this for the most part because it is so competitive.

[Anonymous]

Of course there are misfires. A friend of my son in a Highly Gifted center left the center at end of 4th to return to the home school ( another student came in to replace the departing child in the 5th grade center). My son tells me the kid was not happy and the parents were struggling with the workload and helping him with organization management skills. This seemed to stress out the family unit. They opted to get out of the hot kitchen.

The academic screening bar for HGC and magnet programs is much higher than for private schools our kids also applied to. The kids and families are highly motivated in my son's HGC. Many of the children are of immigrant backgrounds (e.g, Africa, China, Korea, India, Eastern European) in our HGC ... it appears to approach 80 percent (guess). The families and children are bright, highly motivatd and hard working. There is a high tolerance for sacrifice. The lone child in the 4th grade that opted to get out of the heat in the kitchen was Caucasian. I'll let you know if others drop out in the 5th grade. So far, 1 out of 50 at my HGC.

[Anonymous]

I was told last night the number of kids applying to the public middle school magnet program (took screening exam last Saturday) is now over 800 kids up from 500 kids 3 years ago when my first child took the test an enter the middle school magnet at TPMS. Therefore, 100 invites out of 800 instead of 100 out of 500 three years ago. Many of these kids are from the 7 HGC centers (50 students per HGC) and many ambitious children and families who failed to get into the HGC when they were in the 3rd grade. Therefore, the academic bar contiues to rise. I suspect the present economy has diverted still others that may have considered private school over the last 2 to 3 years to try for entrance to the public magnet schools. I suspect when final decisions are made this year it will result in one of the most highly capable classes ever...in terms of intellectual and academic power and accomplishment.

[Anonymous]

Please keep the insightful responses coming. I am busy at work today, so likely will not comment again until tonight at the earliest. Here is a link to a very interesting book chapter I serendipitously ran across last night, which describes a best-practices approach to identifying talented students for school programs. Lots of interesting consideration in here that are pertinent to this discussion.

http://faculty.education.uiowa.edu/dlohman/pdf/10New%20GI-Chapter%20Lohman%20(Decision%20Strategies).pdf

[Anonymous]

PP was Sam2, by the way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

SAM2 wrote:If some percentage of the students are not-quite-gifted, but all of them are doing well in the gifted classroom, then maybe the academics aren't quite as challenging as some parents like to claim.

It's hard to imagine that many kids get in who aren't capable of doing the work, just from a theoretical point of view. First, across MCPS, about 40% kids are labeled gifted. (Yes, I know there is debate over whether the label is too generously applied.) About 20% of 3rd graders apply to a HGC, and about 4% eventually get a spot. In addition to the test scores you mention, they're also looking at performance above grade level, as well as other qualitative factors (creativity, persistence, independence). In the end, it's hard to imagine kids getting in who would quality as "not-quite-gifted." If anything, I think that there are many more kids out there who are arguably equally qualified but don't get in.

This was my post. SAM2, you ask about the likelihood of underqualified kids getting in. We're still in the application stage with our own child, but in the literature and public meetings, they talk a lot about the need for both the child and the family to be motivated and on board. I'm sure there are cases where a child gets in but feels overwhelmed, or disinterested, or homesick for the home school, or has trouble with the long arc of the projects. There are probably also cases where the family as a whole feels that the bother isn't worth the end result for some reason. But just because the HGC center isn't a good fit doesn't necessarily imply that that child is somehow underqualified.

You also wonder whether they don't ever "lag" on academic performance in the centers. What do grades measure? At a certain point, academic achievement is so wrapped up in personal motivation and other similar factors. My personal guess is that the kids accepted to the HGC have enough innate ability that they COULD achieve academically there, but actual success will depend on other factors in their lives.

I know plenty of people with advanced degrees who aren't successful in their careers. That doesn't make them unqualified--it suggests other factors are at play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I think this is kind of odd.

At a certain point, it's not the level of the books you read. What I mean is -- in the HGC my kid read books that were young adult books for the most part, so below my own "reading level," yet even I found them thought provoking and engaging. No, they weren't reading DeLillo and David Foster Wallace but I think they were challenging in terms of the way they were asked to interpret the content and think about the writing. It was the discussion that was important.

So to me, that doesn't mean that the program isn't meeting their needs. Sure, we all choose to read different things in our spare time and thank goodness there's a library full of books so we can find things that interest us. But once you get to a certain level, I don't think we pick books because they are written at a "late college/graduate school reading level."

I'm the PP whom you quote. To a certain extent, I agree with you. In middle school, the books have become more challenging intellectually -- Animal Farm, Farenheit 451, etc. These assignments have provided room for more thoughtful analysis and discussion. Some, such as Animal Farm, may require additional research to understand the full scope of the book. These are worthwhile reads even though others, like Farenheit 451, have a "lexile" score that might make them relatively "easy" reads in terms of text.

But, the level of difficulty of text is also important. Dr. Seuss writes some thoughtful books that even adults can read and think about, but an adult would go bonkers if he had to read Dr. Seuss and other similar books 24/7 at work. It's similar for advanced kids. Frankly, YA books hold little interest for my child. She can read them in an hour or so, but the class can go on and on about them for weeks. The teacher assigns 1-2 chapters at a time, which is a snail's pace for her. Higher level of difficulty of text is what drives more complex vocabulary acquisition and the ability to understand and write more complex text.

In any case, my point was in reply to the original thread topic -- that the HGC is somehow "so" challenging that many kids must be dropping out. That hasn't been the case in our experience, on the reading side, for many kids (not just my child). And, it's unlikely that kids who can easily read the text will be unable to analyze/discuss it. Is the HGC meeting my child's needs better than the home school? Yes, absolutely. In that sense, I'm grateful for it.

[Anonymous]

I think our kids must be in the same school DS also reading Animal Farm, Fahrenheit 451, etc.

I think the HGCs also struggle with the appropriateness of texts. I have never really censored what DS reads but I know there are a lot of parents who would object to many "adult level" books because of the content. And even young adult books can have some more frank sexual material in them, or more adult situations. I think the teachers have to take into consideration the sensitivities of a wide group of families. It can't be easy.

[Anonymous]

I agree with 14:37 that the schools probably struggle to choose books. Apart from the sexual and adult content mentioned by 14:37, for many "great" books you need a certain degree of social and emotional maturity. My DD read Pride and Prejudice in 6th grade and got most of the irony, but was totally turned off by the pressure the daughters faced to find husbands. Now that DD's in high school she "gets" the social issues and context of Pride and Prejudice.

I'm another poster who found the idea odd that kids should read only books at the highest lexile. It's not a question of Dr. Seuss. Nor in my view is everything a race for higher lexiles, or the endless pursuit of "vocabulary acquisition."

My other kid is reading Animal Farm too

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree with 14:37 that the schools probably struggle to choose books. Apart from the sexual and adult content mentioned by 14:37, for many "great" books you need a certain degree of social and emotional maturity. My DD read Pride and Prejudice in 6th grade and got most of the irony, but was totally turned off by the pressure the daughters faced to find husbands. Now that DD's in high school she "gets" the social issues and context of Pride and Prejudice.

I'm another poster who found the idea odd that kids should read only books at the highest lexile. It's not a question of Dr. Seuss. Nor in my view is everything a race for higher lexiles, or the endless pursuit of "vocabulary acquisition."

My other kid is reading Animal Farm too

I'm not saying they have to only read high lexiles, just that every once in awhile would be nice ..... I think if you look at the new Common Core standards, complexity of text is one of three legs of a good reading program, the other leg is complexity of ideas/discussion (and I forget the third ...)

I'm just saying, it seems to me that mostly the HGCs focus on complex discussion/ideas, when the text level is often on level, sometimes above level but for a significant proportion of the HGC kids still not at their reading ability level.

I agree it's hard to pick books for this group ....

[Anonymous]

You may want to find out the actual number of years of teaching experience held by this year's PK and K teachers and assistant teachers.

[Anonymous]

this thread is 5 years old.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You may want to find out the actual number of years of teaching experience held by this year's PK and K teachers and assistant teachers.

?