Starting language immersion in 2nd grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

I find this negative take really interesting. Kids in Europe and other places learn second and third languages in higher grades. I think it is a lot of work to achieve fluency, but not a horrible idea. Especially for a bright kid that wants to learn.

When they teach languages to children in Europe they do not use the immersion model. They teach it as a foreign language. Kids have greater ability to learn languages but not the same way a 3 year old can learn them. They teach grammar, vocabulary etc using word lists etc. the immersion model assumes your brain will be able to retain this information naturally. This really isn’t the case. At best your child will speak very very poorly and be deprived of some serious learning which takes place in 2nd grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

My kid started immersion in 2nd grade. His mom and I both speak fluent Spanish. By spring, he was speaking Spanish to people in Mexico. Yes, it was tough. He got annoyed that we spoke mostly Spanish to him for a couple of years. But - by middle school, he like it when people struck up conversations with him in Ecuador to say how cool it was that we, as a non-native speaking family were speaking Spanish to one another and doing group tours and stuff in Spanish. And by college, he worked entirely in and took classes in Spanish and had a professor ask what Spanish speaking country he grew up in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

My kid started immersion in 2nd grade. His mom and I both speak fluent Spanish. By spring, he was speaking Spanish to people in Mexico. Yes, it was tough. He got annoyed that we spoke mostly Spanish to him for a couple of years. But - by middle school, he like it when people struck up conversations with him in Ecuador to say how cool it was that we, as a non-native speaking family were speaking Spanish to one another and doing group tours and stuff in Spanish. And by college, he worked entirely in and took classes in Spanish and had a professor ask what Spanish speaking country he grew up in.

This is not the same scenario. OP and her household are not fluent in spanish. Even your household, which is fluent in spanish, said it was tough and you got pushback from your kid with the spanish for years.

Also, I’m sure school was tough too in elementary because he didn’t know spanish and likely didn’t do as well as he could.

This is all from parents who are fluent. Now imagine a household who is not fluent or with limited spanish who cannot just speak spanish 100% at home.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

I find this negative take really interesting. Kids in Europe and other places learn second and third languages in higher grades. I think it is a lot of work to achieve fluency, but not a horrible idea. Especially for a bright kid that wants to learn.

When they teach languages to children in Europe they do not use the immersion model. They teach it as a foreign language. Kids have greater ability to learn languages but not the same way a 3 year old can learn them. They teach grammar, vocabulary etc using word lists etc. the immersion model assumes your brain will be able to retain this information naturally. This really isn’t the case. At best your child will speak very very poorly and be deprived of some serious learning which takes place in 2nd grade.

The DC schools aren't 100% immersion at that level though, right? At most it's 50/50.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

My kid started immersion in 2nd grade. His mom and I both speak fluent Spanish. By spring, he was speaking Spanish to people in Mexico. Yes, it was tough. He got annoyed that we spoke mostly Spanish to him for a couple of years. But - by middle school, he like it when people struck up conversations with him in Ecuador to say how cool it was that we, as a non-native speaking family were speaking Spanish to one another and doing group tours and stuff in Spanish. And by college, he worked entirely in and took classes in Spanish and had a professor ask what Spanish speaking country he grew up in.

This is not the same scenario. OP and her household are not fluent in spanish. Even your household, which is fluent in spanish, said it was tough and you got pushback from your kid with the spanish for years.

Also, I’m sure school was tough too in elementary because he didn’t know spanish and likely didn’t do as well as he could.

This is all from parents who are fluent. Now imagine a household who is not fluent or with limited spanish who cannot just speak spanish 100% at home.

Reading is fundamental. OP said “I am a fluent (but not native) speaker and would be able to assist.”

Also, I know you are keen to support you point, but making assumptions about other people’s kids is not a good idea. I said my kid got annoyed when we spoke Spanish with him. “Pushback” is your invention. My kid’s “pushback” consisted of answering us in English. “Likely didn’t do as well as well as he could” is also you invention, and not correct. He actually really enjoyed writing poetry in Spanish, and, in our case, found reading aloud in Spanish much easier than in English because it’s phonetic and he’s somewhat dyslexic. By middle school, he was reading far above grade level in both languages, and getting As in subjects taught in both languages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

I find this negative take really interesting. Kids in Europe and other places learn second and third languages in higher grades. I think it is a lot of work to achieve fluency, but not a horrible idea. Especially for a bright kid that wants to learn.

When they teach languages to children in Europe they do not use the immersion model. They teach it as a foreign language. Kids have greater ability to learn languages but not the same way a 3 year old can learn them. They teach grammar, vocabulary etc using word lists etc. the immersion model assumes your brain will be able to retain this information naturally. This really isn’t the case. At best your child will speak very very poorly and be deprived of some serious learning which takes place in 2nd grade.

The DC schools aren't 100% immersion at that level though, right? At most it's 50/50.

I think DCPS schools are but some immersion charters are 100% immersion such as MV. 100% in ECE and K.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm assuming it's for charter schools, as DCPS will not take a new student into immersion program after 1st grade.

And yet, we put kids with zero English knowledge into schools all the time with a small amount of ESOL support and just hope for the best.

[Anonymous]

A kid in my daughter's 3rd grade class just did this and is fine. She's a super bright and engaged kid and picked up the spanish very quickly. We're only a bit more than 50% through the school year and she's doing great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm assuming it's for charter schools, as DCPS will not take a new student into immersion program after 1st grade.

And yet, we put kids with zero English knowledge into schools all the time with a small amount of ESOL support and just hope for the best.

Yes, kids are constitutionally entitled to public education regardless of their English speaking ability or native language. We have to "put them into schools", there's no alternative. But it's not an optimal situation.

There's no constitutional right to a language immersion education or elective bilingualism. Being a native English speaker who is bilingual and also knows Spanish is nice, but not a "need" in the way that a native Spanish speaker (or any other non-English language) needs to learn English. Elective vs. circumstantial bilingualism. Immersion schools want to optimize their students' opportunities for success to learn the language, be overall successful in school, and feel comfortable and happy at school. And entering after 1st grade with no prior experience in that language is not going to do that. So they don't allow it.

[Anonymous]

not in dc, but ime the level of language after one or two years of immersion is not so high as to be insurmountable by a bright/talented kid. local public immersion schools take new kids in first grade, no questions asked, and will take kids in higher grades after testing. some local immersion schools will take kids at any grade, and offer special support to help them catch up.

whether your kid resents it is going to depend on their temprament.

[Anonymous]

My kids are at a Spanish immersion school (not DCPS, admittedly) and they do not allow children to enroll after first grade unless they have prior Spanish knowledge and can pass a Spanish proficiency test.

But the teachers absolutely will tell you that entering in 1st grade is not ideal- and that those who do usually struggle A LOT unless they are exceptionally bright and/or exceedingly motivated to learn the language and put in the work to catch up.

My oldest more or less fits both of those criteria - she entered at 1st and by the end of the year she had mostly caught up with her peers who attended PK and/or K there, but man...that was a tough year. It was hard academically, but also emotionally. It definitely did a number on her confidence. We LOVE the school, but if I had to do it over again, I don't think I would've put her there without starting at PK or K.

2nd grade? Forget about it. I'd never do that to my kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Terrible idea. They will struggle and could resent you for it.

They will struggle more at some schools than others.

I would never put a 2nd grader in immersion. It’s too late. K might possibly work but not 2nd.

They might resent you more later on for giving younger sibling that chance and not them…

+1000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

I find this negative take really interesting. Kids in Europe and other places learn second and third languages in higher grades. I think it is a lot of work to achieve fluency, but not a horrible idea. Especially for a bright kid that wants to learn.

When they teach languages to children in Europe they do not use the immersion model. They teach it as a foreign language. Kids have greater ability to learn languages but not the same way a 3 year old can learn them. They teach grammar, vocabulary etc using word lists etc. the immersion model assumes your brain will be able to retain this information naturally. This really isn’t the case. At best your child will speak very very poorly and be deprived of some serious learning which takes place in 2nd grade.

The DC schools aren't 100% immersion at that level though, right? At most it's 50/50.

I think DCPS schools are but some immersion charters are 100% immersion such as MV. 100% in ECE and K.

No DC schools are 100% at that age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

I find this negative take really interesting. Kids in Europe and other places learn second and third languages in higher grades. I think it is a lot of work to achieve fluency, but not a horrible idea. Especially for a bright kid that wants to learn.

When they teach languages to children in Europe they do not use the immersion model. They teach it as a foreign language. Kids have greater ability to learn languages but not the same way a 3 year old can learn them. They teach grammar, vocabulary etc using word lists etc. the immersion model assumes your brain will be able to retain this information naturally. This really isn’t the case. At best your child will speak very very poorly and be deprived of some serious learning which takes place in 2nd grade.

The DC schools aren't 100% immersion at that level though, right? At most it's 50/50.

I think DCPS schools are but some immersion charters are 100% immersion such as MV. 100% in ECE and K.

No DC schools are 100% at that age.

LAMB is 100 percent Spanish until kindergarten or first grade. They need to get everyone up to speed so it's no English at all. They don't go 50-50 until the kids are a little older.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience as a spanish tutor this is an incredibly poor decision. I truly believe 1st grade is too late, and second and above is borderline child abuse. I have never seen a child thrive in this situation. Sure sometimes they can muddle through- but is that what you want your kid to think about themselves? Do you want to spend many thousands on enrichment, tutoring, etc? I have yet to see a summer camp in this area that does a good job teaching spanish. They are essentially Spanish exposure. Changing all your screens to English works on toddlers, not on kids who can read and know how to switch them back. You’re going to teach your kid to look at the pictures and tune out the voices. Please don’t do this. If you go ahead and do it (and again, your kid will resent you) please set them up with a one on one tutor and in person group lessons.

I find this negative take really interesting. Kids in Europe and other places learn second and third languages in higher grades. I think it is a lot of work to achieve fluency, but not a horrible idea. Especially for a bright kid that wants to learn.

When they teach languages to children in Europe they do not use the immersion model. They teach it as a foreign language. Kids have greater ability to learn languages but not the same way a 3 year old can learn them. They teach grammar, vocabulary etc using word lists etc. the immersion model assumes your brain will be able to retain this information naturally. This really isn’t the case. At best your child will speak very very poorly and be deprived of some serious learning which takes place in 2nd grade.

The DC schools aren't 100% immersion at that level though, right? At most it's 50/50.

I think DCPS schools are but some immersion charters are 100% immersion such as MV. 100% in ECE and K.

No DC schools are 100% at that age.

LAMB is 100 percent Spanish until kindergarten or first grade. They need to get everyone up to speed so it's no English at all. They don't go 50-50 until the kids are a little older.

This is not true. My LAMB kindergartener is definitely being taught phonics in English right now….