HS teachers that give group projects

[Anonymous]

I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

[Anonymous]

Do AP classes do less group projects?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

I take points from the kids who steamroll the others and try to do the whole project themselves. If your group members are trying to contribute and you’re shutting down their ideas, refusing to communicate and reach understanding, dictating what they can/can’t add to the project and then trying to present all the info, and generally bossing/dominating/shutting down and going solo instead of working as a team, you’re not collaborating and your not getting 100% of the point. Collaboration is a 2 way process. The same way the kids who don’t try to participate at all lose points, so do the ones who inhibit collaboration to retain total control this way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid who is studious and conscientious really dislikes group projects. He usually ends up doing most of the project. He especially despises when the teacher groups him with 1-2 students who do nothing to very little instead of having the students who are hard working grouped together.

Teachers almost always tell the class they can see who is doing the work and who isn't and they are going to grade accordingly. It never seems to happen. If anyone in my son's group ever complains to the teacher the teacher says some BS about in the real world you have to learn to work together so they have to deal with it. At times my son has lost points because he asked the teacher what to do if someone says they are going to turn in their part but then never does after the group members beg the student to complete the work.

How do I know the slacker kids get the grade as the student who has put in all the hours? I have another child who is the slacker. He is a bright but does the minimal. He often seem to find a group to join with a Type A girl. From the get go he goes up and tells her he is willing to relinquish all control to her and she can do the whole thing and he will stay out of her way. He is good at presenting so he says he will present whatever she writes up for him if there is a presentation.

Slacker son also chooses a student whose parents with advanced degrees do the work for the student so they get the best grade. Those parents really like my slacker kid because he is willing to go along with not doing anything but is smart enough to be able to answer questions if asked and not tell anyone the parents are really doing the work. So he ends up getting A's for doing absolutely nothing.

Your slacker son is going to end up in a cushy job at Central Office.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid who is studious and conscientious really dislikes group projects. He usually ends up doing most of the project. He especially despises when the teacher groups him with 1-2 students who do nothing to very little instead of having the students who are hard working grouped together.

Teachers almost always tell the class they can see who is doing the work and who isn't and they are going to grade accordingly. It never seems to happen. If anyone in my son's group ever complains to the teacher the teacher says some BS about in the real world you have to learn to work together so they have to deal with it. At times my son has lost points because he asked the teacher what to do if someone says they are going to turn in their part but then never does after the group members beg the student to complete the work.

How do I know the slacker kids get the grade as the student who has put in all the hours? I have another child who is the slacker. He is a bright but does the minimal. He often seem to find a group to join with a Type A girl. From the get go he goes up and tells her he is willing to relinquish all control to her and she can do the whole thing and he will stay out of her way. He is good at presenting so he says he will present whatever she writes up for him if there is a presentation.

Slacker son also chooses a student whose parents with advanced degrees do the work for the student so they get the best grade. Those parents really like my slacker kid because he is willing to go along with not doing anything but is smart enough to be able to answer questions if asked and not tell anyone the parents are really doing the work. So he ends up getting A's for doing absolutely nothing.

Your slacker son is going to be a CEO some day. I am one of those Type A girls, still at the bottom of the hierarchy. It's actually amazing how people have this kind of intuition so young.

I totally understand. I wrote the previous post about my sons. I was a quiet, studious kid who loved to read. I realized kids were cheating off me, "borrowing" my homework if I set it down, didn't mind putting in extra time to do extra work in projects, etc. Definitely, life does not reward girls like us in the professional world. I like my job and it pays decently but I will never be in a leadership role, which is fine with me.

It has been fascinating to see the other side. Younger son puts in effort to figure out all the short cuts (many I don't approve of) , very social, and surprisingly to me gets all A's. I had no idea so many students were gaining an advantage by pooling resources. For example, in his group of friends whoever has the class first period then shares test questions with students in later periods and the ones with older siblings, friends, cousins share previous tests and assignments. They tell each other what classes not to take or what teachers to avoid by picking an elective that conflicts with the "hard grader" teacher then they change electives later on, or drop it, or take it during summer school online but don't report it until after classes start and they get their schedule. They figure out who to strategically pick to work with during group projects or if assigned figure out quickly if they can get away with not doing work. I really don't understand how teachers aren't figuring out and putting a stop to some of these strategies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid who is studious and conscientious really dislikes group projects. He usually ends up doing most of the project. He especially despises when the teacher groups him with 1-2 students who do nothing to very little instead of having the students who are hard working grouped together.

Teachers almost always tell the class they can see who is doing the work and who isn't and they are going to grade accordingly. It never seems to happen. If anyone in my son's group ever complains to the teacher the teacher says some BS about in the real world you have to learn to work together so they have to deal with it. At times my son has lost points because he asked the teacher what to do if someone says they are going to turn in their part but then never does after the group members beg the student to complete the work.

How do I know the slacker kids get the grade as the student who has put in all the hours? I have another child who is the slacker. He is a bright but does the minimal. He often seem to find a group to join with a Type A girl. From the get go he goes up and tells her he is willing to relinquish all control to her and she can do the whole thing and he will stay out of her way. He is good at presenting so he says he will present whatever she writes up for him if there is a presentation.

Slacker son also chooses a student whose parents with advanced degrees do the work for the student so they get the best grade. Those parents really like my slacker kid because he is willing to go along with not doing anything but is smart enough to be able to answer questions if asked and not tell anyone the parents are really doing the work. So he ends up getting A's for doing absolutely nothing.

Your slacker son is going to be a CEO some day. I am one of those Type A girls, still at the bottom of the hierarchy. It's actually amazing how people have this kind of intuition so young.

I totally understand. I wrote the previous post about my sons. I was a quiet, studious kid who loved to read. I realized kids were cheating off me, "borrowing" my homework if I set it down, didn't mind putting in extra time to do extra work in projects, etc. Definitely, life does not reward girls like us in the professional world. I like my job and it pays decently but I will never be in a leadership role, which is fine with me.

It has been fascinating to see the other side. Younger son puts in effort to figure out all the short cuts (many I don't approve of) , very social, and surprisingly to me gets all A's. I had no idea so many students were gaining an advantage by pooling resources. For example, in his group of friends whoever has the class first period then shares test questions with students in later periods and the ones with older siblings, friends, cousins share previous tests and assignments. They tell each other what classes not to take or what teachers to avoid by picking an elective that conflicts with the "hard grader" teacher then they change electives later on, or drop it, or take it during summer school online but don't report it until after classes start and they get their schedule. They figure out who to strategically pick to work with during group projects or if assigned figure out quickly if they can get away with not doing work. I really don't understand how teachers aren't figuring out and putting a stop to some of these strategies.

Teachers aren’t in control of a lot of that (scheduling, for example). As for the rest of it, what would you like us to do? I have over 150 students and I already work way more hours than I should. I make multiple versions of tests each year. I give paper tests so they can’t cheat electronically. I require written response so they can’t cheat on multiple choice (which then takes me many hours to grade). And after all my efforts, students still cheat. When I catch them, I then have to spend time I don’t have defending the failing grade to the students, parents, and my admin.

It’s exhausting.

[Anonymous]

I like to put all the slackers in the same group and watch what happens. I understand some teachers call this the turd group. Sometimes they don’t get it together to present anything at all. And no the Hermione Grangers of the world don’t need to do your sons homework. He and his fellow slackers can figure it out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I like to put all the slackers in the same group and watch what happens. I understand some teachers call this the turd group. Sometimes they don’t get it together to present anything at all. And no the Hermione Grangers of the world don’t need to do your sons homework. He and his fellow slackers can figure it out.

The best part is they think it’s a reward for them when it’s really for everyone else to not have to deal with them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

I take points from the kids who steamroll the others and try to do the whole project themselves. If your group members are trying to contribute and you’re shutting down their ideas, refusing to communicate and reach understanding, dictating what they can/can’t add to the project and then trying to present all the info, and generally bossing/dominating/shutting down and going solo instead of working as a team, you’re not collaborating and your not getting 100% of the point. Collaboration is a 2 way process. The same way the kids who don’t try to participate at all lose points, so do the ones who inhibit collaboration to retain total control this way.

I don't recall this happening. In my experience, the diligent kids tried their best to collaborate with the slackers who didn't listen and did not care. In the end, the diligent kids gave up and quietly did all the work so that when the slackers didn't do their parts (shocker!), there was actually a complete project to turn in.

[Anonymous]

I still remember when DS had a group project and one of the other kids was supposed to turn it in, but didn’t, and DS found out about this after it was too late to do anything about it. Important lesson about not trusting morons!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

I take points from the kids who steamroll the others and try to do the whole project themselves. If your group members are trying to contribute and you’re shutting down their ideas, refusing to communicate and reach understanding, dictating what they can/can’t add to the project and then trying to present all the info, and generally bossing/dominating/shutting down and going solo instead of working as a team, you’re not collaborating and your not getting 100% of the point. Collaboration is a 2 way process. The same way the kids who don’t try to participate at all lose points, so do the ones who inhibit collaboration to retain total control this way.

You are delusional. Guess what - my autistic child doesn’t steamroll anyone! 9th grade cutups in the honors classes are never going to do the work. But you keep thinking you know everything! It’s the ones that don’t do the work that are steamrolling hard workers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I tell my children they must do 100% of the work in the group project if they want 100% of the points. FCPS rules say they can't be graded on others' contributions but we know this is BS.

the projects have been fine once you get to AP classes. All the students are putting in the work there. Prior to that, it's a nightmare. And no, it is absolutely not the same as adults collaborating in the workplace. Last year my kid got dinged - she wrote the script for some skit and the 3 boys in her group decided to improvise the ending, thus producing a skit that did not meet the length requirements.

there's maybe been 1 project for AP history this year, no issues.

I take points from the kids who steamroll the others and try to do the whole project themselves. If your group members are trying to contribute and you’re shutting down their ideas, refusing to communicate and reach understanding, dictating what they can/can’t add to the project and then trying to present all the info, and generally bossing/dominating/shutting down and going solo instead of working as a team, you’re not collaborating and your not getting 100% of the point. Collaboration is a 2 way process. The same way the kids who don’t try to participate at all lose points, so do the ones who inhibit collaboration to retain total control this way.

You are delusional. Guess what - my autistic child doesn’t steamroll anyone! 9th grade cutups in the honors classes are never going to do the work. But you keep thinking you know everything! It’s the ones that don’t do the work that are steamrolling hard workers.

Please stop telling me what’s going on in my own classes based on your one autistic 9th grader . I don’t teach your kid or 9th grade honors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Do AP classes do less group projects?

Fewer, not less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I refuse to give group projects. It means I have to grade 4x as many submissions, but I don't feel right allowing any student to get marks for another student's ability/knowledge.

Any assessment is individual, completed in class only so that mom/dad can't do it and Johnny can't have Jimmy do his work.

In English, collaborative work is in the SOL framework. It’s a standard they’re supposed to cover. We do all the group work in class because they’re not large projects and this way we know the parents didn’t do and the kids have to have accountability for how they participated and showed up in their group. But it’s an important skill for them to learn.

It’s not. It’s really not. I know someone somewhere in the school admin org chart thinks this, but it’s not true. Kids need to learn how to produce good work on their own. Group projects teaches slackers how to slack. That’s all that comes out of it, and that isn’t good for anyone. It’s not good for the slacker, and it’s not good for the kid who has to pick up their slack. It doesn’t teach them how to function in the real world. It teaches them behaviors that will get them fired.

It does reduce the amount of grading that teachers have to do, and I get that our teachers are over worked, but forcing kids to do group projects is not the solution to that problem.

Wow. I disagree with this.

I have to work collaboratively every day at my job with some really difficult people.

But I remember this dynamic from high school, and I remember what my business teacher taught me then: getting the job done is what’s most important. And good leaders figure out how to motivate the slackers.

And I was hired at my current job because of my reputation for doing this well.

+1, whenever my daughter complains about a group project I say “welcome to the rest of your life.”

[Anonymous]

So teachers that love these - which of you are explicitly teaching skills for succeeding in these projects? There seems to be zero scaffolding to help kids succeed. Teachers also seem not to admit that they don’t have the skills to properly grade or monitor the projects/participants.