What's the best way to advocate for improved English curriculum in MS and HS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

MS students should be reading texts like these, and not excerpts.

I liked reading Steinbeck and Shakespeare in public MS.

Mine touched on Shakespeare in MS. But I'm glad they won't get Steinbeck til later. I know their mental maturity level will be a better match then even though they could handle the reading now.

Kids in 3rd grade are reading books about abusive alcoholic fathers who terrorize their kids, smashing their toys and beating them. It's just sick what they expose kids to in MCPS. Let them be kids for f**'s sake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I taught MS and HS English in the county for a decade. At the HS level, I had 150(+/-) students at any given time. We were expected to enter at least 2 grades into the gradebook weekly. Even a minute per assignment would take me hours beyond the duty day. For essays, I'd try to keep it to about 4 minutes per student (and no, of course every assignment wasn't an essay). Still, there is a reason why work may be returned without overly detailed notes. A very detailed scoring rubric can be helpful. None of this is best practice, though. Best practice is hard to put into place with the sheer numbers teachers are dealing with.

I appreciate your insight into this. Genuine question: why do you think teachers in the 90s able to provide more corrections and feedback? I’m pretty sure they taught at least four classes.

DP, but I can help answer this:

I been teaching for 20 years. I’m responsible for approximately 3 times the amount of meetings and data collection than I used to be. My class sizes are up as well, so that means additional papers. So it starts with less time and more work.

And then there’s the classroom environment. I used to get a little done during the work day. If my students were working, I could accomplish tiny tasks at my desk. Now I have to remain constantly vigilant because student behavior is often worrisome. This also means that I’m more exhausted at the end of the day, making it harder to pull the evening hours I used to pull.

Frankly, it isn’t the same job. Not remotely. I used to enjoy it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Every book my kids have read in MCPS for the last 20 years makes them want think life is nothing but abuse, murder, betrayal, violence. Sick selection of books. Then they wonder why they need suicide intervention counseling sessions during home room.

You do realize those have been key themes of many a book for centuries now?

Hamlet
Macbeth
Count of Monte Cristo
Romeo and Juliet
Scarlett Letter
The Illiad
Lord of the Flies

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Every book my kids have read in MCPS for the last 20 years makes them want think life is nothing but abuse, murder, betrayal, violence. Sick selection of books. Then they wonder why they need suicide intervention counseling sessions during home room.

You do realize those have been key themes of many a book for centuries now?

Hamlet
Macbeth
Count of Monte Cristo
Romeo and Juliet
Scarlett Letter
The Illiad
Lord of the Flies

+Most great works of literature typically involve war/conflict, poverty, death, despair, and/or injustice--those who are blaming books for the need for counseling for kids are idiots.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Every book my kids have read in MCPS for the last 20 years makes them want think life is nothing but abuse, murder, betrayal, violence. Sick selection of books. Then they wonder why they need suicide intervention counseling sessions during home room.

That's what I hated about high school classics from ELA in the 1980s. Most of them were violent or sad. But they were more canonical great works.

Odyssey - HEA but sus, post-war, violent
Antigone - dark af (liked it though)
Romeo and Juliet - murdery, sad, suicide
Julius Caesar - murder, govt. overthrow
Macbeth - murder, govt. overthrow
Crime and Punishment - murder
Scarlet Letter - infidelity, social shaming
1984 - dystopia, negative view of govt.
Anthem (Rand) - also dystopia
On the Burning of My House (liked this)
Senior poetry unit...E.E. Cummings (nice)

I willingly took a Shakespeare elective in college. I was so appreciative of being able to read the comedies!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

At an MCPS school? Within the last 5 years? Would love to know which one, and whether it was only in the AP or IB curriculum, or whether it was in the 8th-10th grade honors classes. I think things pick up once you get into AP or IB, but the curriculum before then is just so dumbed down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

MS students should be reading texts like these, and not excerpts.

I liked reading Steinbeck and Shakespeare in public MS.

Mine touched on Shakespeare in MS. But I'm glad they won't get Steinbeck til later. I know their mental maturity level will be a better match then even though they could handle the reading now.

I'm the one that first mentioned Steinbeck and I agree that MS is too early, but 10th grade is not. And it would pair well with APUSH which a lot of the 10th graders are doing. So would Hawthorne, and something like The Crucible and The Invisible Man. I think my kid that did IB read some of those in 11th grade. I just feel like 8th-10th grade are totally wasted with the books they read.

But I totally agree with the teacher who posted before that the current system does not allow for any meaningful feedback on writing. They could use computer programs to at least give them grammer and punctuation feedback, but actual writing structure and syntax ... you need a human with hours to dedicate to that task. I wonder if they just hired writing instructors (like some colleges do), how many they would need to give each kid a decent edited essay once per year, or once per semester. It's also amazing when I look back on my own public school education in a state that people here deride as generally pretty crappy .... but we got feedback on our essays. I don't know how they did it -- we also had big class sizes, but maybe the teachers had less in-service BS, less paperwork, and more grading periods. Is there anyone on here who was teaching in the 1980s that can weigh in?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

At an MCPS school? Within the last 5 years? Would love to know which one, and whether it was only in the AP or IB curriculum, or whether it was in the 8th-10th grade honors classes. I think things pick up once you get into AP or IB, but the curriculum before then is just so dumbed down.

My kid read Of Mice and Men and Romeo and Juliet in regular honors English 9 or 10 within the last 3 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

At an MCPS school? Within the last 5 years? Would love to know which one, and whether it was only in the AP or IB curriculum, or whether it was in the 8th-10th grade honors classes. I think things pick up once you get into AP or IB, but the curriculum before then is just so dumbed down.

My kid read Of Mice and Men and Romeo and Juliet in regular honors English 9 or 10 within the last 3 years.

Yep. Mine as well. Did Taming of the Shrew in 10th. Also have done other things like Catcher in the Rye, Tell tale Heart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

Not in MCPS. Ours watched a video of Romeo and Juliet but never actually read it (ours techincally did as I bought the book to help them undestand it).

A video?! Are you kidding me?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCCPTA either gifted and talented committee or curriculum committee.

Out of curiosity, is this where the global humanities course originated? Or was that teacher initiated?

This is lost to the sands of time but global humanities started as a spin-off from the MS humanities magnet curriculum. When MCPS changed the formula for MS magnet admissions, they simultaneously rolled out HIGH (social studies) and AIM (math) with the promise that kids who didn't make it into the magnets would have the option for an equivalent education alongside academic peers in the home schools.

Neither of those classes is anywhere near what they offer at Eastern and Takoma.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

My kids have read Shakespeare in MS and HS. Didn’t enjoy any of the ones chosen. Read some “classics” and didn’t enjoy most.

Not into Shakespeare either. But I went to a public school that emphasized classics and they were great.

I don’t understand MCPS’s approach to English. At my child’s ES, I rarely see work returned home. How are they supposed to learn if they don’t know where they made grammar and spelling errors? I don’t think some teachers even read the essays.

+1 - rarely get returned work in 5th grade reading/writing. Got more returned work with grammar/spelling/content commentary in 3rd grade.

I asked that my ES student’s work be returned home, and ai am finally getting it. I don’t get how not returning work is a thing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I appreciate your insight into this. Genuine question: why do you think teachers in the 90s able to provide more corrections and feedback? I’m pretty sure they taught at least four classes.

That's a good question. Did they? I'm a nerd and have a folder of academic papers from my distant past around somewhere, and I went through it a couple years ago and saw that my English essays had sporadic comments, with the occasional underline for spelling or grammar errors. I'd say that is pretty similar to what I used to do for my students.

I only ever had one teacher (college professor) who went totally nuts marking every aspect of the paper, and it was off-putting because we (students) could barely see what part of our work each comment referred to, as there was so much of it. So, there's that angle.

Generally, what my grad school professors advised (I was a career changer and former copy editor, so I needed this advice to keep things in check or I'd be grading 24/7) was to mark according to the grammar/usage issues we'd been covering in class, as well as key structural elements of the essay that we'd been working on (maybe the thesis, or supporting details in body paragraphs).

Whatever the case, I can't imagine English teachers have ever had it easy in the grading department. We need some older teachers to chime in!

All that said, a lighter grading load (that is, smaller class sizes) is one surefire way to enable better teacher feedback.

As for the curriculum, who knows. I've taught MS magnet and HS IB English. Now I'm homeschooling my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

Not in MCPS. Ours watched a video of Romeo and Juliet but never actually read it (ours techincally did as I bought the book to help them undestand it).

A video?! Are you kidding me?!

When it's a play, I don't mind them watching a video. It's supposed to be performed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree English is the weak point.

I think there’s one easy fix which is to assign more books and better book. Basically everything my kids read was written after 1950 and most of t was written after 2000. They don’t read Shakespeare, dickens, Britney, Steinbeck, Hawthorne, Wharton, Austen etc.

The second one, which is probably impossible to solve, is more feedback on their writing. They just aren’t staffed for that. They would need to give all the English teachers at least one or two more additional planning periods to give them time to really read and edit and provide substantive feedback on writing. Or give them TAs or something. (Although it’s not even clear to me that the new graduates are capable of that.)

Both of my kids have read Shakespeare and Steinbeck.

Not in MCPS. Ours watched a video of Romeo and Juliet but never actually read it (ours techincally did as I bought the book to help them undestand it).

A video?! Are you kidding me?!

No, very serious. They did not get a copy of the book or the typical pdf. They watched the video in class over a few days.