Undergraduate major of lawyers, earnings and type of law practiced

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think undergraduate major matters at all. I majored in sociology. I did well in law school and joined a top tier biglaw firm, where I spent more than a decade before moving to a boutique.

My advice would be to major in whatever you enjoy and will be invested in. That will lead to better grades, which leads to admission to a better law school.

This is correct. I was History major. Great to learn research, reading, writing, critical thinking. Big law partner. Take what you like if you know you want law school.

+1. Big Law partner as well. My undergraduate classmates who were philosophy majors and wound up in law school became Supreme Court clerks. They were able to process and articulate concepts quite well. There are no wrong answers in philosophy, just badly explained answers.

I was a poli sci major but focused more on the nuts and bolts stuff of US and international politics. I struggled with conceptual issues in law school (bad grades in constitutional law and contracts) but did well in other courses that didn't focus as much on these issues. I think this was because I didn't take too many ideology courses or philosophy-adjacent type courses.

I think working between college and law school would have helped me much more than majoring in economics. That's what I advised my DC who wants to be a lawyer. DC is majoring in philosophy, too.

The real question is not whether your DC would get into a good law school or be happy here. The real question is whether your DC would be happy being a lawyer at all. Lawyers are paid to solve problems for other people. If you don't like this, don't become a lawyer. I like it and I am still practicing, but my wife didn't and she is a retired lawyer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mean earnings:

Economics $187K
Political Science $151K
Criminal Justice $89K

Christ on a cracker. I didn't know it was common for lawyers to make under 100 G's.

thats BOTTOM tier law only. going to any ole law school is simply not hard. It isn't like med school where it is very hard to get in but as long as you do MD in the USA the bottom group still clears 150k, and average for the lower-paying primary care fields is usually 225k fulltime, with top subspecialties easily clearing 400k

[Anonymous]

DS is a junior in college and wants to apply to law school (he’ll probably work for a couple of years to save money and gain maturity and professional skills).

He had a rough first year of college grade-wise (he wasn’t going crazy partying or the like, but he had a hard adjustment to managing his time effectively and the analytic skill expectations of college profs - I difress but he’s got adhd and isn’t medicated, he managed fine that way in HS but it’s proven harder for him in college), but he learned from his mistakes and has done well since and I’m very proud of him. But he’ll never be able to make up the hit to his gpa from that first year. Is a good law school a viable option for a kid whose overall gpa will likely be 3.6ish, but excluding first year would be more like a 3.8? Obviously he doesn’t know how he’ll do on the LSAT, but he scored a 36 on the ACT so hopefully he’ll do well on it. I feel badly for him that law school may not he in the cards mainly because of a rough adjustment to college, but I’ve told him that may be the case so he is prepared.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My major was liberal arts, because I failed to take everything required to graduate with my major, which was theater.

Tax litigator here. DOJ HP. GS-15.

What’s your salary?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS is a junior in college and wants to apply to law school (he’ll probably work for a couple of years to save money and gain maturity and professional skills).

He had a rough first year of college grade-wise (he wasn’t going crazy partying or the like, but he had a hard adjustment to managing his time effectively and the analytic skill expectations of college profs - I difress but he’s got adhd and isn’t medicated, he managed fine that way in HS but it’s proven harder for him in college), but he learned from his mistakes and has done well since and I’m very proud of him. But he’ll never be able to make up the hit to his gpa from that first year. Is a good law school a viable option for a kid whose overall gpa will likely be 3.6ish, but excluding first year would be more like a 3.8? Obviously he doesn’t know how he’ll do on the LSAT, but he scored a 36 on the ACT so hopefully he’ll do well on it. I feel badly for him that law school may not he in the cards mainly because of a rough adjustment to college, but I’ve told him that may be the case so he is prepared.

Do well then transfer second year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mean earnings:

Economics $187K
Political Science $151K
Criminal Justice $89K

Christ on a cracker. I didn't know it was common for lawyers to make under 100 G's.

thats BOTTOM tier law only. going to any ole law school is simply not hard. It isn't like med school where it is very hard to get in but as long as you do MD in the USA the bottom group still clears 150k, and average for the lower-paying primary care fields is usually 225k fulltime, with top subspecialties easily clearing 400k

That's true, there are several law schools that require little more than a degree, a pulse and a checkbook to get in. While pretty much every medical school has high admissions standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is a junior in college and wants to apply to law school (he’ll probably work for a couple of years to save money and gain maturity and professional skills).

He had a rough first year of college grade-wise (he wasn’t going crazy partying or the like, but he had a hard adjustment to managing his time effectively and the analytic skill expectations of college profs - I difress but he’s got adhd and isn’t medicated, he managed fine that way in HS but it’s proven harder for him in college), but he learned from his mistakes and has done well since and I’m very proud of him. But he’ll never be able to make up the hit to his gpa from that first year. Is a good law school a viable option for a kid whose overall gpa will likely be 3.6ish, but excluding first year would be more like a 3.8? Obviously he doesn’t know how he’ll do on the LSAT, but he scored a 36 on the ACT so hopefully he’ll do well on it. I feel badly for him that law school may not he in the cards mainly because of a rough adjustment to college, but I’ve told him that may be the case so he is prepared.

Do well then transfer second year.

pp said her kid is now a junior (also with bad freshman year grades, how would they transfer soph year?)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DS is a junior in college and wants to apply to law school (he’ll probably work for a couple of years to save money and gain maturity and professional skills).

He had a rough first year of college grade-wise (he wasn’t going crazy partying or the like, but he had a hard adjustment to managing his time effectively and the analytic skill expectations of college profs - I difress but he’s got adhd and isn’t medicated, he managed fine that way in HS but it’s proven harder for him in college), but he learned from his mistakes and has done well since and I’m very proud of him. But he’ll never be able to make up the hit to his gpa from that first year. Is a good law school a viable option for a kid whose overall gpa will likely be 3.6ish, but excluding first year would be more like a 3.8? Obviously he doesn’t know how he’ll do on the LSAT, but he scored a 36 on the ACT so hopefully he’ll do well on it. I feel badly for him that law school may not he in the cards mainly because of a rough adjustment to college, but I’ve told him that may be the case so he is prepared.

Do well then transfer second year.

pp said her kid is now a junior (also with bad freshman year grades, how would they transfer soph year?)

Lol, do well in the first year of law school then transfer to the preferred law school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2016/03/simkovic-mcintyrethe-value-of-a-law-degree-by-college-major-29kyear-for-stem-majors-45kyear-for-huma.html

Philosophy is grouped with religion; it would be higher if separated out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS is a junior in college and wants to apply to law school (he’ll probably work for a couple of years to save money and gain maturity and professional skills).

He had a rough first year of college grade-wise (he wasn’t going crazy partying or the like, but he had a hard adjustment to managing his time effectively and the analytic skill expectations of college profs - I difress but he’s got adhd and isn’t medicated, he managed fine that way in HS but it’s proven harder for him in college), but he learned from his mistakes and has done well since and I’m very proud of him. But he’ll never be able to make up the hit to his gpa from that first year. Is a good law school a viable option for a kid whose overall gpa will likely be 3.6ish, but excluding first year would be more like a 3.8? Obviously he doesn’t know how he’ll do on the LSAT, but he scored a 36 on the ACT so hopefully he’ll do well on it. I feel badly for him that law school may not he in the cards mainly because of a rough adjustment to college, but I’ve told him that may be the case so he is prepared.

I have a friend who went to a cruddy law school around here and is now killing it as the #1 lawyer in his subfield in another state. You can absolutely do well in law without being a top tier graduate, but you won't get the huge initial starting salary and you have to work very hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:11% of Columbia JD entrants majored in economics, vs. 4% of LSAT takers. 10% majored in philosophy, vs. 3% of test-takers.

These majors do well on the LSAT so not surprising to see them better represented at an elite law school.

I came here to say this.

Econ/philosophy majors (or major in one and minor in the other) makes for really good LSATs and slightly easier ride in law school.

If you spend your entire life with fuzzy thinking, the LSATs will be tough and law school will be painful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Undergrad major to lawyer earnings is at best correlation, not causation.

If you want to make big $ as a lawyer, go to a highly ranked law school and get very high grades. Top of your class. Especially the first semester of your first year. IMHO, this is the #1 factor.

With very high first year grades, you are more likely to get interviews with (and offers from) the top-tier corporate law firms that pay top of market. These firms have very high grade cut-offs. They only hire law students with the very top law school GPAs.

Getting the summer offer is the hard part. If you do a decent enough job over the summer (arent completely incompetent or excessively awkward or weird), you’ll be fine.

At the college level - Do what you need to do to get into the best law school you can while also preparing yourself to get excellent first year grades for once you get there.

Above all else, this means having a high college GPA and LSAT score. (The lower-ranked your college is, the higher your stats need to be to get in to a good law school.)

College major doesn’t matter much. Just be sure to: (1) earn a high GPA; and (2) take as many classes as you need to become super skilled at reading and analyzing large volumes of texts, and writing clearly and persuasively. (Without already having this skill-set on day one of law school, you’re unlikely to do well first year, which in turn will limit your employment options and earning potential after.)

All of the fluffy talk notwithstanding, it’s nothing but an old boy's network.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks OP. As you point out, this is not about causation and moreover, there's an open question as to which way the arrows point. The kind of person who majors in "justice" was probably always going to shoot for the local ACLU or housing authority, rather than Covington.

The kid with 2 parents on Wall Street who accelerated through linear algebra in his NYC top tier private was ALWAYS going to make money, whether in PE, corporate real estate, fintech or at white shoe firm. The econ major was just a means to a the end, and the end was always defined as "making bank, wherever it suits me."

Not if you go to a T8 and have $350k in debt. I clerked (paid very comparatively very little) and then worked for Covington which has been ranked no 1 in the US for pro bono 12 years. https://www.cov.com/en/pro-bono

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Econ major is a nice preparation for antitrust, which tends to be among the more sophisticated practice areas.

If you are looking for large compensation, BigLaw and boutique BigLaw spinoffs, regardless of practice area, will be a more reliable path than, say, random small firms. Obviously there are exceptions and no one-size-fits-all rule.

I’m an antitrust litigator and a background in Econ is nice to have but the best majors are the ones that require a lot of heavy reading of dense materials and lots of analytical writing. So humanities and social sciences tend to do well. Undergrad business majors typically aren’t a good fit. But you never know because sometimes people have skills unrelated to their majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS is a junior in college and wants to apply to law school (he’ll probably work for a couple of years to save money and gain maturity and professional skills).

He had a rough first year of college grade-wise (he wasn’t going crazy partying or the like, but he had a hard adjustment to managing his time effectively and the analytic skill expectations of college profs - I difress but he’s got adhd and isn’t medicated, he managed fine that way in HS but it’s proven harder for him in college), but he learned from his mistakes and has done well since and I’m very proud of him. But he’ll never be able to make up the hit to his gpa from that first year. Is a good law school a viable option for a kid whose overall gpa will likely be 3.6ish, but excluding first year would be more like a 3.8? Obviously he doesn’t know how he’ll do on the LSAT, but he scored a 36 on the ACT so hopefully he’ll do well on it. I feel badly for him that law school may not he in the cards mainly because of a rough adjustment to college, but I’ve told him that may be the case so he is prepared.

His LSATs can override his grades but logic and reading comprehension are key and SAT scores are not indicative of LSAT scores.