NY Times editorial: "Universities Like Yale Need a Reckoning"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

They may expect to make 100k, but the percentage of people without degrees making 100k is very low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gift link please

Sorry, I thought I shared the gift link. Does this work?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/14/opinion/ya...bkZRa&smid=url-share

He didn't pick on URMs. Amazing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gift link please

Sorry, I thought I shared the gift link. Does this work?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/14/opinion/ya...bkZRa&smid=url-share

The author loses all credibility when he refers to VP Kamala Harris as a "brilliant black women". Both Yale and the New York Times should be ashamed for publishing this drivel written by one with so little awareness of reality.

Agreed, it should just be "is brilliant" the other 2 adjectives are not necessary and irresponsible qualifiers.

Aren't you the clever one.

VP Kamala Harris is not brilliant, although she is a black woman.

The VP's handlers knew how weak she was--and is--intellectually so they shielded her from engaging in any real interviews.

Kamala Harris' biggest mistake during her brief 107 day campaign was in being dishonest repeatedly.

She is actually brilliant, she has taken many tests along the way and passed them, so she is measurably brilliant.

As for losing, I mean 2M people in NC voted for a Republican (Robinson) who Republicans didn't even back who is a black nazi (he said), denies the holocaust and thinks 9/11 is probably a lie. So, I'm not sure what Dems are to do for those 2M people (and their ilk). Don't lay that at the feet of Dems.

I think she lied once in the fact checks and she corrected herself. Believe me, being honest is not something Rep care about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

Student loans are available. That is not something easily accessible to young people in other parts of the world. If they are making that kind of money without college then why are they so angry?

They are angry because people like you think they only job they can get is McDonalds and if you look at them your body language shows them you assume they are trash and racist.

No, I don't think they are racist. I think what's contemptible about them is that they are anti-education, and that's what makes them trash. I think they have opportunities unfathomable to most young men around the world and are angry because high paying blue collar jobs are harder to come by than 30 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

They may expect to make 100k, but the percentage of people without degrees making 100k is very low.

What is that %? and what is the % of college educated people making 100K?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gift link please

Sorry, I thought I shared the gift link. Does this work?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/14/opinion/ya...bkZRa&smid=url-share

The author loses all credibility when he refers to VP Kamala Harris as a "brilliant black women". Both Yale and the New York Times should be ashamed for publishing this drivel written by one with so little awareness of reality.

All things being equal we do at least know the author's credentials. You are as anonymous as the rest of us here on DCUM and just as likely a high school dropout or paid troll as you are anything else. It is much easier to dismiss your opinions that it is the opinions of someone who has put in the work to earn a doctorate and appointment at Yale. Talk about "one with so little awareness of reality" smh

Very aware of the reality that VP Harris and the Democratic Party lost by a near landside in the recent election. The Democrats lost the Presidency, the Senate, and the House.

If to the winner goes the spoils then you should recognize that places like Yale "won" decades ago. They dance to their own music at their own prom with their own king and queen. If they want to put a tiara on Kamala Harris then they will.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Good article OP. Thanks for sharing.

Agree. Pretty good piece, but would have welcomed more ideas on how to reach people outside of academia (one of his points that he doesn’t really address).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

Student loans are available. That is not something easily accessible to young people in other parts of the world. If they are making that kind of money without college then why are they so angry?

They are angry because people like you think they only job they can get is McDonalds and if you look at them your body language shows them you assume they are trash and racist.

No, I don't think they are racist. I think what's contemptible about them is that they are anti-education, and that's what makes them trash. I think they have opportunities unfathomable to most young men around the world and are angry because high paying blue collar jobs are harder to come by than 30 years ago.

Again the assumptions you make about people that go to college is elitist and incorrect.

They are not "anti-education" but they have decided they would rather be educated in a different way. Someone who is a farmer can teach you more about the economy, climate change, pesticides in food, supply chain, etc than any college graduate.

You actually don't understand why they are mad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

They may expect to make 100k, but the percentage of people without degrees making 100k is very low.

What is that %? and what is the % of college educated people making 100K?

DP but was curious so I asked chatGPT.

“The percentage of people making more than $100,000 per year varies significantly depending on educational attainment. Generally:

1. With a college degree: Studies have shown that individuals with at least a bachelor’s degree are far more likely to earn $100,000 or more annually. Recent data indicates that around 30-40% of people with a bachelor’s degree or higher earn over $100,000. This percentage increases for those with advanced degrees, such as a master’s or professional degree.

2. Without a college degree: The percentage of people without a college degree making over $100,000 is considerably lower. For those with only a high school diploma, typically 5-10% reach this income level. However, factors like industry, years of experience, and geographic location can also play significant roles in earnings at this level.

These percentages can vary somewhat year by year and by geographic region. The gap reflects both the earning potential associated with higher education and the career paths accessible to those with and without degrees.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gift link please

Sorry, I thought I shared the gift link. Does this work?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/14/opinion/ya...bkZRa&smid=url-share

The author loses all credibility when he refers to VP Kamala Harris as a "brilliant black women". Both Yale and the New York Times should be ashamed for publishing this drivel written by one with so little awareness of reality.

Agreed, it should just be "is brilliant" the other 2 adjectives are not necessary and irresponsible qualifiers.

Aren't you the clever one.

VP Kamala Harris is not brilliant, although she is a black woman.

The VP's handlers knew how weak she was--and is--intellectually so they shielded her from engaging in any real interviews.

Kamala Harris' biggest mistake during her brief 107 day campaign was in being dishonest repeatedly.

She is actually brilliant, she has taken many tests along the way and passed them, so she is measurably brilliant.

As for losing, I mean 2M people in NC voted for a Republican (Robinson) who Republicans didn't even back who is a black nazi (he said), denies the holocaust and thinks 9/11 is probably a lie. So, I'm not sure what Dems are to do for those 2M people (and their ilk). Don't lay that at the feet of Dems.

I think she lied once in the fact checks and she corrected herself. Believe me, being honest is not something Rep care about.

We have different standards regarding brilliant.

VP Harris repeatedly lied about her positions on issues during her brief campaign. She was trying to trick non-liberals into voting for her by reversing her long held positions on matters such as building the wall. Voters saw through her lies and the results speak for themselves. VP Harris was a terrible candidate who lost to a less terrible candidate. And I am a registered Democrat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

Student loans are available. That is not something easily accessible to young people in other parts of the world. If they are making that kind of money without college then why are they so angry?

They are angry because people like you think they only job they can get is McDonalds and if you look at them your body language shows them you assume they are trash and racist.

No, I don't think they are racist. I think what's contemptible about them is that they are anti-education, and that's what makes them trash. I think they have opportunities unfathomable to most young men around the world and are angry because high paying blue collar jobs are harder to come by than 30 years ago.

Again the assumptions you make about people that go to college is elitist and incorrect.

They are not "anti-education" but they have decided they would rather be educated in a different way. Someone who is a farmer can teach you more about the economy, climate change, pesticides in food, supply chain, etc than any college graduate.

You actually don't understand why they are mad.

This part is not even remotely true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The author lost me at paragraph 3 by calling Kamala “brilliant.” When will people admit she is a dud intellectually? Just holding certain jobs does not make one smart.

Actually, she is.

And way smarter than you.

[Anonymous]

One of the comments correctly points out that the problem with these schools is their extreme exclusivity. Any school that rejects over 90% of applicants should lose all federal funding. Universities are supposed to educate American students, not function like gatekeeping country clubs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's one concrete step he proposes (and I couldn't agree more).

“We” need to openly recommit to learning and teaching about the whole of our knowledge — our histories, our literature, our sciences, our social structures, as much or more than we stress our racial, ethnic and gendered parts. Those fields of study are important and established for good reasons. But the whole and the parts have to sing together or there is no democracy or broad learning or informed citizenry in the end. We could drown in the habits of our own particularities and favorite ideologies, and lose hold of how humans connect across a multitude of difference. We need answers for our critics who believe we are an ideological monolith, whether they are right or not. We may not like universals anymore, but there are some, like elections, that stun millions into despair or glee.

I found that the least compelling part of the piece. Mostly because it presumes that the "solution" to the perception of places like Yale is the other academics stop doing their fields in the way that makes the most sense to them. He can disagree with that approach (if you know his work, you'll see that that emphasis on a unified American story is a big part of it), but ultimately if another historian looks at history and *doesn't* see it that way, they should feel free to work and teach the story that they see.

I found the idea of a "moonshot" for public universities much more compelling. Yale simply isn't that important for most people and it never has been. Investing in the universities that are actually educating most people is a great idea, though.

+1 The problem is that the entire argument is a straw man. He is arguing that we do not teach a "whole" history or a "whole" literature, but a quick look at his own university's course selections belies this argument. If you look at the History offerings at Yale next semester, yes, you can take classes on the history of specific groups, but you can also take courses like "The American Revolution" and "The Age of Jefferson and Hamilton."

In order to receive a history degree, you need to take a variety of those classes, which is right and correct and exactly how one would learn a "whole" history.

The same is true of a literature degee. The thing he argues is necessary is already the norm!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't understand how most Americans don't go to college. I really don't. This country has so much opportunity if you are someone who values education and strives for a better life. I think of the fact that public schools encourage reading, that may sound trivial but public schools in the Arab world absolutely do not. And libraries are not commonly used. Just by reading a low income or low middle class child can develop skills to have a better understanding of the world. And through scholarships can get into good schools. Again with the Arab world comparison because that is what I know best--do you think a bright low income kid over there can get into a good school? Very very hard.

Americans don't realize how good they have it. And the American culture of contempt toward educated elites is part of the reason someone like Trump was able to win. I remember reading a Vance interview where he said McDonald's should hire young American men through better wages and I just rolled my eyes. Yeah sure, these hordes of young unemployed white men are dying to work at McDonald's if only they could get 15 bucks an hour. No, they want high-paying jobs being a foreman at a factory or something. And they are angry at their lawyer cousin who was smart to get out of Oklahoma or whatever and make a good life for themselves in DC or NY.

Because they are not getting low paying McDonald's jobs. They are making $100K+/year without college.

Also, even a state school will run you $120K for 4 years and most poeple can't afford that, actually most can't afford to not work for 4 years.

Student loans are available. That is not something easily accessible to young people in other parts of the world. If they are making that kind of money without college then why are they so angry?

They are angry because people like you think they only job they can get is McDonalds and if you look at them your body language shows them you assume they are trash and racist.

No, I don't think they are racist. I think what's contemptible about them is that they are anti-education, and that's what makes them trash. I think they have opportunities unfathomable to most young men around the world and are angry because high paying blue collar jobs are harder to come by than 30 years ago.

Again the assumptions you make about people that go to college is elitist and incorrect.

They are not "anti-education" but they have decided they would rather be educated in a different way. Someone who is a farmer can teach you more about the economy, climate change, pesticides in food, supply chain, etc than any college graduate.

You actually don't understand why they are mad.

Teach you maybe, but not me. I listen to experts. That's probably why I was able to move from a blue-collar working-class background to where I am today.