S/O: schools w/ great merit and are top producers of STEM PhDs

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugrad schools don't produce PhD students. Ugrad students make themselves into PhD students.

+1,000!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and CS, maybe it doesn't matter. But to do anything interesting in those other STEM fields, yes, you need a PhD, especially if you're headed into industry jobs.

This is patently false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, I for one am grateful to you for pointing this out. We are a budget conscious family with a child interested in environmental science with an eye towards getting a PhD. I do think she'll be eligible for merit aid at some of these smaller schools based on strong grades and test scores, but we've been unsure about the strength of these programs in terms of preparing her for a PhD (and also offering the kind of support students need to get into PhD programs, like internships with professors and strong recommendations).

You've given us some good food for thought, though environmental science is not technically one of the listed STEM subjects. But we should be able to find a way to obtain that data and might be able do a similar comparison. Right now her her top choices are Cornell, UC-Santa Cruz, and UMD. But Cornell is a crapshoot even with top numbers, and UC-Santa Cruz is tough out of state. This sounds like a really good approach for finding target and safety options so that she doesn't get penned in with limited options.

I went to a state flagship and have some bias towards them for STEM because I think the research opportunities tend to be really good. So for me, finding out what kinds of research opportunities are available at these much smaller schools is important. Even as an undergrad, real research experience is invaluable as it helps you narrow your are of study to start honing in on what you'll focus on in your graduate program. It's also the best way to develop strong relationships with professors. But I have an open mind. When I went to a state flagship, it cost me 6k/yr as an in-state student with a merit scholarship based on GPA. It's a different world now.

My DD is majoring in environmental science at one of the colleges OP mentioned and applied to several of them. That list was definitely informative for us in doing the research. She's not sure if she'll get a PhD but is definitely one thing she's thinking of and know she will at least need a master's degree. DH and DS and I all went to big state Us but DD very much preferred the small schools where you can get to know faculty better, research opportunities are easier/less competitive, and a school that integrates a lot of environmental field work.

Another interesting tool is this visualization that will show you how many students graduate in certain major areas. Good for finding small schools that have robust programs. I was fine with DD going to a small school because she was going someplace where her major is one of the largest programs so they have a good variety of faculty with different research interests and good variety of classes. This came out after she did her research but a lot of the schools she considered rise to the top of the list if you filter to "natural resources and conservation" with student size <3000
https://public.tableau.com/app/profile/jonboeckenstedt/viz/BachelorsDegreesAwardedin2022/Dashboard1

[Anonymous]

North Carolina State University has one of the oldest and largest statistics departments, and produces the most statistics Ph.D.s, in the nation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For engineering and CS, maybe it doesn't matter. But to do anything interesting in those other STEM fields, yes, you need a PhD, especially if you're headed into industry jobs.

I agree with your assessment, OP. My kid goes to one of those schools mentioned above. He is majoring in my field and getting a much better undergrad education than I ever did at my DCUM-revered state flagship. Better grad school admittance is just gravy.

yes, that's why the SLACs are up there. They don't have strong Eng/CS programs.

True for engineering, though I was surprised to see that 18/50 schools on the CS list are LACs — a stronger showing than I’d have expected for that subject.

I think students who go to schools that are weak in CS for undergrad are going to seek higher degrees.

I mean, you have 3 from Millsaps College (have never heard of it) going to get a PhD in CS. Their student body is less than 1000, with a graduation rate in the low 60%. You'd need a PhD in CS if you went to a school like Millsaps College for CS.

According to this site, there were all of 2 CS undergrad majors.

https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/mississippi/millsaps-college/majors/

This is 100% wrong.

? "This is 100% right". lol

[Anonymous]

Some of the smaller schools do have impressive numbers in biology. For smaller fields such as Math and Stat, some of the highly ranked smaller schools are sending just 3-5 students per year. It's tricky to make generalizations with such small sample sizes. A few individual decisions can really sway the percentages.

You do, however, also want to ask where these students end up for their PhDs. Academic jobs and desirable post-docs disproportionately go to students from Top 20 programs. Industry and government employers are less finicky, but it's always easier from a good school.

It's also of note that those numbers also tell you most people in US PhD programs don't come from SLACs. (There were only a couple of SLAC grads in my program, which was pretty big). Many come from universities with their own PhD programs, where undergrads have worked in labs alongside PIs, post-docs, and grad students. These labs have huge grants and state of the art equipment. You will want to make sure that the department at a SLAC can offer something equivalent.