What do you think of HS teachers who tell kids to write their own letters of recommendation?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the immediate pp before your last post. I understand why your kid is hurt, but that is the least of it. I have worked in college admissions and there is a strong preference for letters whose students have waived the right to see them. The understanding is that they are more honest and reliable. Assuming that your child intends to be truthful, your child can not waive the right. For some admissions people, that discredits the letter.

OP here and I wasn't even aware of that and now I'm even more annoyed. Yes, I think the child would be truthful in that situation. So now even the letter she has been told to write herself will be discredited because they'll know she's seen it?

I get teachers are overburdened but there are likely no more than 1 or 2 other students at the school who have taken as many classes or done as much EC work with this particular teacher. Are teachers so overburden that writing a letter of recommendation for their 2nd or 3rd best and most committed student is too much to ask? This student is just trying to get into college.

There may be another 2 dozen who have had that teacher and don't have any teacher who they've don ECs with to ask.

Sure, and I can see asking those students to write the recommendation. But THIS student has a special relationship with this teacher that very few other students have, and it's based on the effort and commitment the student has put into the teacher's class and after school activities. Shouldn't that be worth something?

Is that from the student's perspective, or are you getting that from the teacher?

OP and it is factual. This is a student I mentor. She has taken classes with this teacher every year of high school (it is not a required class) and gotten As in every one of them. She has been among the most committed students to the extra-curricular the teach supervises, and is among a group of 4-5 students who essentially help run that extra-curricular, raise money, organize events, do marketing and outreach, etc. I am very familiar with the school and I can only think of one other student who might be considered the "top" student in this teacher's classes and ECs. If you asked other teachers at the school about this student, one of the first things they would mention is this student's commitment to this teacher's subject and EC. There is really only one other student at the school you could say the same about.

I am frankly confused as to why the teacher seems so cold/indifferent about this -- I would have expected her to be excited to support this particular student, who is likely to study in an area related to this teacher's subject. This is the kind of student that most teachers I know say they wish they had more of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is a gift.

I'd give your brag sheet + some anecdotes to a trusted friend who writes well and have them write it, so it's not in your DC's voice. Then, you can make edits if needed.

Why not ask your trusted friend to help you move for free while you are at it.

Huh? I would be happy to do this for a friend. I proofread college essays and will help formulate college lists, and I don't ask for anything in return. I don't think I'm unique.

[Anonymous]

Great practice for when you're an adult and your boss that you're leaving tells you to write your own reference letter.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've written hundreds of letters of recommendations for students over my career. With very few exceptions, I show the student the letter in advance and ask if there is anything they would like changed. And with very few exceptions, the students have been delighted with the letter as written.

The reason that I show them the letter is to make sure that I have adequately covered what they believe needed to be covered in the letter. A couple of times I have left something, like a sport or club. I've never been asked to make real substantive changes.

Waiving the right to read the letter has nothing to do with the teacher giving the student the opportunity to read the letter in advance.

If you let students read the letter, then how are they waiting their right to read it?

Waiving the right just means you're not *entitled* to see it. If I had a student where I didn't feel comfortable showing them their letter, then I wouldn't have to show it to them. They don't have the RIGHT to view it. But if I want to show it to them, there's nothing stopping me from doing that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am the immediate pp before your last post. I understand why your kid is hurt, but that is the least of it. I have worked in college admissions and there is a strong preference for letters whose students have waived the right to see them. The understanding is that they are more honest and reliable. Assuming that your child intends to be truthful, your child can not waive the right. For some admissions people, that discredits the letter.

OP here and I wasn't even aware of that and now I'm even more annoyed. Yes, I think the child would be truthful in that situation. So now even the letter she has been told to write herself will be discredited because they'll know she's seen it?

I get teachers are overburdened but there are likely no more than 1 or 2 other students at the school who have taken as many classes or done as much EC work with this particular teacher. Are teachers so overburden that writing a letter of recommendation for their 2nd or 3rd best and most committed student is too much to ask? This student is just trying to get into college.

There may be another 2 dozen who have had that teacher and don't have any teacher who they've don ECs with to ask.

Sure, and I can see asking those students to write the recommendation. But THIS student has a special relationship with this teacher that very few other students have, and it's based on the effort and commitment the student has put into the teacher's class and after school activities. Shouldn't that be worth something?

Is that from the student's perspective, or are you getting that from the teacher?

OP and it is factual. This is a student I mentor. She has taken classes with this teacher every year of high school (it is not a required class) and gotten As in every one of them. She has been among the most committed students to the extra-curricular the teach supervises, and is among a group of 4-5 students who essentially help run that extra-curricular, raise money, organize events, do marketing and outreach, etc. I am very familiar with the school and I can only think of one other student who might be considered the "top" student in this teacher's classes and ECs. If you asked other teachers at the school about this student, one of the first things they would mention is this student's commitment to this teacher's subject and EC. There is really only one other student at the school you could say the same about.

I am frankly confused as to why the teacher seems so cold/indifferent about this -- I would have expected her to be excited to support this particular student, who is likely to study in an area related to this teacher's subject. This is the kind of student that most teachers I know say they wish they had more of.

It is hard finding out your child is not as special as you/they think they are. Happens to all of us at some point, I think. Hugs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. In this case, my problem with it is not the quality of the letter. Sure, the student could get some help to write the letter and wind up with a great recommendation signed by a teacher. I am not this student's parent but I'd be happy to help them with it.

Rather, I think it is hurtful. This is a student who has really put a lot of effort specifically into classes and activities with this teacher and has, to quote a PP, cultivated what sounds like a positive relationship. For instance, the student is spearheading a project this year that the teacher is advising on and they have already spent a lot of time working on it.

Basically, I think the student is hurt that the teacher can't take the time to write a recommendation for her, given the teacher's extensive familiarity with this student's academic ability, work ethic, and extra-curricular interests. I think it has been an ego blow at a time when I think this student could use encouragement. I have been trying to think of how many the teacher is using this as a teachable moment, like trying to get this student to talk herself up as a confidence-building exercise. But it has had the opposite effect, and now the student feels that not even the teacher she has worked closest to and who teaches her favorite subject believes in her.

I get that! It is indeed hurtful. I guess it’s an eye-opening experience for a teen — that some teachers are not invested in their students.

I would not let my kid internalize this, however! No way.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is a gift.

I'd give your brag sheet + some anecdotes to a trusted friend who writes well and have them write it, so it's not in your DC's voice. Then, you can make edits if needed.

Why not ask your trusted friend to help you move for free while you are at it.

Huh? I would be happy to do this for a friend. I proofread college essays and will help formulate college lists, and I don't ask for anything in return. I don't think I'm unique.

I would proofread something too and help formulate a list...but write an entire recommendation letter from scratch? No thanks. That takes things to a different level.

[Anonymous]

Use gpt 4. say it like this?

“write a stellar exemplary descriptive letter of recommendation for college for a male student from my 11th grade AP US history teacher, where the student was an active participant, wrote a deep college level essay on the lasting consequential impact of the war of 1812 and served as a mentor to other low performing students. He was deeply invested in the rigorous coursework, came to class well prepared with material pulled out from assignments each day”

[Anonymous]

This happened to me with my graduate advisor. I told him I was not comfortable writing it myself and would find another reference if I needed to. And thanked him for being an amazing teacher and advisor.
He wrote me a lovely heartfelt rec. So glad. But, I was also ok moving on without it rather than writing myself.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This happened to me with my graduate advisor. I told him I was not comfortable writing it myself and would find another reference if I needed to. And thanked him for being an amazing teacher and advisor.
He wrote me a lovely heartfelt rec. So glad. But, I was also ok moving on without it rather than writing myself.

OP here. I appreciate this comment. I have encouraged this student (who is not my child, my kids are much younger) to talk to the teacher about her discomfort in writing the letter. Based on this thread, I'm also going to suggest she put together a brag sheet and some narrative specifically about how her work in this teachers' classes and EC have been meaningful to her and how they relate to her future goals in college and beyond, because I see how that would really help the teacher.

I think the reason I'm indignant is because I know that if this teacher needed a student review or endorsement, this student would be the first one offering and would write something heartfelt and incredibly glowing.

[Anonymous]

OP, I think you've gotten a lot of good responses as to why this happens and in fact why it's a good thing. The teen may have specific things she wants the teacher to highlight, this is a great way to make sure those particular things get mentioned.

I recently wrote a letter of recommendation for a colleague and I asked if there were particular things he wanted me to call out. It gave me an idea of what was in his mind when he asked me. Coincidentally, my middle schooler is about to ask a teacher to write a recommendation for his application for private school. He is going to provide a list of all his in-school and out of school activities and explain why he wants to attend this high school. I know you said this teen and teacher have a particular strong relationship, but it's still worthwhile to make it easy on the teacher.

The other thing to keep in mind is that this teen has no idea what's going on in the teacher's life. Maybe that was the 10th request that day. Maybe the teacher had a fight with their spouse, or has an issue with their own family life. Or is fed up and considering leaving the profession. What came across to the teen as a lack of caring may have been insight into the teacher's current struggles as a human.

Help the teen develop some sort of resume or activity sheet, and a draft of a letter that hits the highlights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This happened to me with my graduate advisor. I told him I was not comfortable writing it myself and would find another reference if I needed to. And thanked him for being an amazing teacher and advisor.
He wrote me a lovely heartfelt rec. So glad. But, I was also ok moving on without it rather than writing myself.

OP here. I appreciate this comment. I have encouraged this student (who is not my child, my kids are much younger) to talk to the teacher about her discomfort in writing the letter. Based on this thread, I'm also going to suggest she put together a brag sheet and some narrative specifically about how her work in this teachers' classes and EC have been meaningful to her and how they relate to her future goals in college and beyond, because I see how that would really help the teacher.

I think the reason I'm indignant is because I know that if this teacher needed a student review or endorsement, this student would be the first one offering and would write something heartfelt and incredibly glowing.

PP here. That sounds like a good plan. Share discomfort but make it easy for the teacher to write. Make sure your indignation doesn't seep into student and their communication with the teacher. I think some of your judgments may be a bit unfair there, and the kid wants this teacher motivated to write for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This happened to me with my graduate advisor. I told him I was not comfortable writing it myself and would find another reference if I needed to. And thanked him for being an amazing teacher and advisor.
He wrote me a lovely heartfelt rec. So glad. But, I was also ok moving on without it rather than writing myself.

I think this is the best approach

[Anonymous]

I feel for teachers who already have so much on their plates. But I know if you asked my kid to do this, she would be afraid of bragging and would say she didn’t know what to say about herself. Sounds great for 17 year olds who understand how to market themselves. But how many is that really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a teacher who does this here is my rationale:

First of all, I never send a letter verbatim that is written by a student. The tone must be mine. But I often do not know what gifts or challenges a student has or has dealt with beyond what I see in their work or in class. And this can be very boring and impersonal to write.

Most public HS teachers have hundreds of students at one time, so developing a personal relationship with all of them is impossible. The last thing you want is a teacher who writes 3 forms of a letter for average student, good student and struggling student and just changes the name of student and school to which the letter is going. You risk this by providing no insight into yourself when you ask for a recommendation.

A recommendation should highlight more than what is obvious - just saying someone is a good focused student who does well and participates in class will get you no further than what a report card is telling an admissions committee. Getting personal input helps the teacher craft a more personalized and individualized letter.

Often schools require each student to write a brag sheet to aid teachers with this process. i have had parents do it too. These are not letters, but do provide guidance and insight into a student.

If a student is willing to do a letter, it is a sign to me they are taking their college or job prospects seriously and personally. A student who cannot engage with those they are enlisting to support them may not have the energy needed for the programs to which they are applying. This tells me something about who wants to get in more. Who is most committed.

Lastly there is a lot I don't know about my students. Why do they sleep in class (taking care of siblings, sick parents), why are they over or under organized (everything from undiagnosed ADHD, which based on their description of their behavior might give me insights they do not have - I cannot stay focused, I like to listen to music while I work) why is their work always on time or late, yet they do well? Or they may have a dream I know nothing about that explains why they are pursuing certain programs. (I want to record music so I am focused on computer science as our school does not have a solid music program, or I love nature but we have no environmental studies class, but I work at a community garden for my volunteer hours and am an avid hiker.)

But when you ask students to write their own letters, how do they know you want them to include personal details about their lives that you don't already know. First off, a student might be embarrassed to reveal family troubles or to special needs. Second, if someone asked me to write a recommendation on their behalf, I'd only focus on things that person already knew about me because otherwise it wouldn't ring true. Like if I'd overcome a personal challenge in order to get an A in their class, but the teacher didn't know about that challenge, I wouldn't include it in the letter because... the teacher doesn't know about it.

It sounds it would be better to have a questionnaire you give students who ask for recommendations where you ask them directly for some of these personal details (especially stuff about their future goals, why they are applying to that school, why their experience in your class was good preparation for that or inspired a specific interest, etc.). That would make it clear what you are looking for.

But just telling a student to write their own recommendation doesn't make them suddenly understand any of what you just explained, and could come off as you saying "I don't like you well enough to write a good recommendations, but I get you need one, so you write it and I'll sign it."

These are 17 yr old kids who have never applied to college before, so it might be useful to be a bit more explicit with them. You are assuming they understand it from your perspective but of course they do not. And while some students will have savvy and supportive parents who can guide them, others won't, and those are actually the ones most in need of encouragement and guidance from you.

In the case of the teacher you're responding to, there's a well articulated explanation above, don't you think the request for a letter or a brag sheet would come with a similar verbal explanation? If not, and the student is confused or offended, they should be able to go to the familiar teacher and feel out the reasoning. If the teacher does this as a matter of routine, they certainly can't make an exception for the pet student. The teacher still edits the letter, the student who did go above and beyond is going to get more attention at that stage, and a better recommendation.