After AOPS intro books

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

"statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week." has always been the target audience, and the program is advertised as such. That said, the age level isn't the key thing, since there is no age gating on the content.

"Doing AIME" means learning intro Algebra, Geometry, Counting, and Number Theory, with a "math IQ" multiplier to be able to solve tricky/hard problems that rely on clever combinations and applications of these basic facts. This is "gifted/talented middle shooler" territory. An 8th grade "math head", who treats math seriously the way another kid treats soccer seriously, can qualify for AIME... or at least could have 10 years ago, when the ever rising difficulty level was substantially lower.

"Passing AIME" is very different matter.


How is the pacing off? You are allowed to progress at your own pace and spend more time practicing any topic.

How is it both insufficient for higher level and also not slow enough for low level?

What do you mean by "higher level"? Do you mean older students (like 16+ and learned calculus?), or higher ability students within a subject like Algebra and Geometry?

This past year, there were fewer than 200 kids in grades 7 and below that took the AIME. I'm pretty sure that makes them statistically rare.

The qualifying test is in the fall, so 13 years old would be 8th graders, not 7th graders. Of course it's "rare", but we're talking about AoPS users in the first place, who knows what they are getting into. And the books aren't forcing you to spend more time to get through it faster or earlier; you are allowed to go slower or later.

If you did all the middle and high school books on offer, at the pace offered in the live classes, one class at a time, you could do Pre-algebra in 5th through calculus in 10th, and Counting and Number Theory in summers, or stretch it out another school year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

I have one of those kids who first took AIME at age 11 and who also went through the Intermediate series. I don't think there's a problem with the books per se, but instead there's a problem with the way people approach them. Ideally, a kid would either have already finished the same class level in school, and then be using the AoPS text to broaden understanding, or the kid would be supplementing heavily with Alcumus or some other resource. While AoPS gave my kid a great understanding of how to prove and apply things like law of cosines or double angle formulas, he also needed the much more basic problems in his school math classes to get enough practice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

You can qualify for AIME by taking a test that only covers the Intro series, so I don't see the connection between when you take AIME and the pace of the Intermediate books.

To put it differently, if you don't qualify for AIME yet, you can learn more from the Intro books before attempting the Intermediate books. If you don't fully learn the Intro material, that may be why the Intro books seem too easy and the Intermediate books seem too hard.

If you are trying to track school curriculum but a bit better, then you can skip a LOT of the Intermediate books content, a still learn plenty more than school teaches. Which is fine. The books intentionally have a very high ceiling. It's easier to skip stuff you don't want than go find something you don't have.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

You can qualify for AIME by taking a test that only covers the Intro series, so I don't see the connection between when you take AIME and the pace of the Intermediate books.

To put it differently, if you don't qualify for AIME yet, you can learn more from the Intro books before attempting the Intermediate books. If you don't fully learn the Intro material, that may be why the Intro books seem too easy and the Intermediate books seem too hard.

If you are trying to track school curriculum but a bit better, then you can skip a LOT of the Intermediate books content, a still learn plenty more than school teaches. Which is fine. The books intentionally have a very high ceiling. It's easier to skip stuff you don't want than go find something you don't have.

PP with the kid who started qualifying for AIME in 6th grade here. The bolded is key. 100%. A second pass through of the material is a great idea, unless the kid is breezing through all of hte problems the first time. One of the ways I approached the AoPS books was to have my kid read the chapter and do all of the non challenge problems on the first pass through the book. Then, on the second pass through, re-read the chapter contents and then do the challenge problems. The other thing is that if your kid is relatively young and generally has breezed through math, it's important to make sure they're not trying to run away from the sections that are particularly challenging to them. The AoPS website has a very active forum, and it's perfectly fine to ask for help with understanding concepts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

Have you seen the size of their Intermediate Algebra book? If it was any bigger, it wouldn't physically fit in a backpack!

There are way more than enough problems in the AoPS textbooks, to the point where it would be unreasonable (and likely impossible) for a child to be able to do every problem. Now if you are complaining about not enough basic drill problems, maybe that is true. Although if you take a look at the end of chapter Review problems (not the Challenge problems that follow them), there are plenty of problems there that should feel straightforward, or semi-straighforward.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

You can qualify for AIME by taking a test that only covers the Intro series, so I don't see the connection between when you take AIME and the pace of the Intermediate books.

To put it differently, if you don't qualify for AIME yet, you can learn more from the Intro books before attempting the Intermediate books. If you don't fully learn the Intro material, that may be why the Intro books seem too easy and the Intermediate books seem too hard.

If you are trying to track school curriculum but a bit better, then you can skip a LOT of the Intermediate books content, a still learn plenty more than school teaches. Which is fine. The books intentionally have a very high ceiling. It's easier to skip stuff you don't want than go find something you don't have.

PP with the kid who started qualifying for AIME in 6th grade here. The bolded is key. 100%. A second pass through of the material is a great idea, unless the kid is breezing through all of hte problems the first time. One of the ways I approached the AoPS books was to have my kid read the chapter and do all of the non challenge problems on the first pass through the book. Then, on the second pass through, re-read the chapter contents and then do the challenge problems. The other thing is that if your kid is relatively young and generally has breezed through math, it's important to make sure they're not trying to run away from the sections that are particularly challenging to them. The AoPS website has a very active forum, and it's perfectly fine to ask for help with understanding concepts.

Was this over the course of 1 week like their courses or did you end up spending more time on each chapter?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

You can qualify for AIME by taking a test that only covers the Intro series, so I don't see the connection between when you take AIME and the pace of the Intermediate books.

To put it differently, if you don't qualify for AIME yet, you can learn more from the Intro books before attempting the Intermediate books. If you don't fully learn the Intro material, that may be why the Intro books seem too easy and the Intermediate books seem too hard.

If you are trying to track school curriculum but a bit better, then you can skip a LOT of the Intermediate books content, a still learn plenty more than school teaches. Which is fine. The books intentionally have a very high ceiling. It's easier to skip stuff you don't want than go find something you don't have.

PP with the kid who started qualifying for AIME in 6th grade here. The bolded is key. 100%. A second pass through of the material is a great idea, unless the kid is breezing through all of hte problems the first time. One of the ways I approached the AoPS books was to have my kid read the chapter and do all of the non challenge problems on the first pass through the book. Then, on the second pass through, re-read the chapter contents and then do the challenge problems. The other thing is that if your kid is relatively young and generally has breezed through math, it's important to make sure they're not trying to run away from the sections that are particularly challenging to them. The AoPS website has a very active forum, and it's perfectly fine to ask for help with understanding concepts.

Agree with the bold part, it is a fine balance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love AoPS. Their books are great, but once you get to the intermediate level the pacing seems off. They could stand to spend more time on some concepts that they gloss over. Now maybe it's fine if your kid happens to be that statistically rare kid that will do AIME at 13 or spends 6-8 hours a week reading math textbook each week. I don't feel it's sufficient even for very bright students at a higher level.

You can qualify for AIME by taking a test that only covers the Intro series, so I don't see the connection between when you take AIME and the pace of the Intermediate books.

To put it differently, if you don't qualify for AIME yet, you can learn more from the Intro books before attempting the Intermediate books. If you don't fully learn the Intro material, that may be why the Intro books seem too easy and the Intermediate books seem too hard.

If you are trying to track school curriculum but a bit better, then you can skip a LOT of the Intermediate books content, a still learn plenty more than school teaches. Which is fine. The books intentionally have a very high ceiling. It's easier to skip stuff you don't want than go find something you don't have.

PP with the kid who started qualifying for AIME in 6th grade here. The bolded is key. 100%. A second pass through of the material is a great idea, unless the kid is breezing through all of hte problems the first time. One of the ways I approached the AoPS books was to have my kid read the chapter and do all of the non challenge problems on the first pass through the book. Then, on the second pass through, re-read the chapter contents and then do the challenge problems. The other thing is that if your kid is relatively young and generally has breezed through math, it's important to make sure they're not trying to run away from the sections that are particularly challenging to them. The AoPS website has a very active forum, and it's perfectly fine to ask for help with understanding concepts.

Was this over the course of 1 week like their courses or did you end up spending more time on each chapter?

Having a rigid timeframe is a recipe for failure. You need to course correct in response to how much time the kid needs. If they breeze through the problems, you move on. If they struggle a bit, you spend more time, look for outside resources, or ask questions on the AoPS message board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We have been doing AOPs books at home; intro to algebra, intro to number theory, intro to counting and probability, and intro to geometry.
In a few months, we will be done. (We are doing cover to cover, but skip some very difficult Qs).

DC is grade 6. I am wondering if the intermediate AOPS books may be too difficult for DC. Intermediate books are for high schoolers, right? Or, can you handle it if you finish the intro books?

Do you have any suggested book that can be in-between the intro and intermediate AOPs books. It may be good to do easier books for a while, but normal books like Scholastics seem too easy. Any suggestion?

The next step would indeed be the intermediate AoPs books. Maybe you could go back and revisit the problems you skipped, or do Alcumus on hard difficulty for practice, but in general they should be ready for the intermediate books unless they've forgotten algebra (thus necessitating review with Alcumus). Also if they're into math, look in to epsilon camp over the summer and/or https://www.fairfax-mathcircle.org/. As for contests, they're another great opportunity to meet (and befriend) other math enthusiasts. Mathcounts is team-based so consider joining if your schoolhas a team, but also consider having them take the AMC 8 or 10 (or a practice exam), as the AMC exams are the main path to the most challenging (and therefore interesting) highschool math competitions. If they stress out under time constraints, then check out the USAMTS (or at least the first (easiest) questions from the past).

A fun site to check out is Brilliant. Their courses arent exhaustive, but the lessons are very high quality and interactive, and there's a wide variety of them so it's great to get exposure to topics they might not have known existed

[Anonymous]

OP. I still need time to check about various suggestions, thanks. Coincidentally, a few days ago, we noticed that we can sign up for AMC8 test at School, so DC did. We checked the AMC8 questions of 2023 last night, and found a few Qs are very difficult. It seems average score is 10 out of 25. We also noticed that the AMC8 questions are: no real algebra question, no much geometry questions, exponents are also not much asked or very easy one only. So, I am guessing that the later half of intro books are high school math, and not asked in AMC8. When we are doing intro books, about the first half is relatively easy going, and the later half takes time.

So, it seems we don't need to buy and go through any AMC8 prep book.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP. I still need time to check about various suggestions, thanks. Coincidentally, a few days ago, we noticed that we can sign up for AMC8 test at School, so DC did. We checked the AMC8 questions of 2023 last night, and found a few Qs are very difficult. It seems average score is 10 out of 25. We also noticed that the AMC8 questions are: no real algebra question, no much geometry questions, exponents are also not much asked or very easy one only. So, I am guessing that the later half of intro books are high school math, and not asked in AMC8. When we are doing intro books, about the first half is relatively easy going, and the later half takes time.

So, it seems we don't need to buy and go through any AMC8 prep book.

If DC can consistently score greater than 20 on the AMC8, then they should try the AMC10.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP. I still need time to check about various suggestions, thanks. Coincidentally, a few days ago, we noticed that we can sign up for AMC8 test at School, so DC did. We checked the AMC8 questions of 2023 last night, and found a few Qs are very difficult. It seems average score is 10 out of 25. We also noticed that the AMC8 questions are: no real algebra question, no much geometry questions, exponents are also not much asked or very easy one only. So, I am guessing that the later half of intro books are high school math, and not asked in AMC8. When we are doing intro books, about the first half is relatively easy going, and the later half takes time.

So, it seems we don't need to buy and go through any AMC8 prep book.

The 8 is a clue. AMC8 is targeted to 8th graders: (hard) Prealgebra.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP. I still need time to check about various suggestions, thanks. Coincidentally, a few days ago, we noticed that we can sign up for AMC8 test at School, so DC did. We checked the AMC8 questions of 2023 last night, and found a few Qs are very difficult. It seems average score is 10 out of 25. We also noticed that the AMC8 questions are: no real algebra question, no much geometry questions, exponents are also not much asked or very easy one only. So, I am guessing that the later half of intro books are high school math, and not asked in AMC8. When we are doing intro books, about the first half is relatively easy going, and the later half takes time.

So, it seems we don't need to buy and go through any AMC8 prep book.

If DC can consistently score greater than 20 on the AMC8, then they should try the AMC10.

With the caveat that the contests have an artificially tight time limit, for competitive purposes, so as long as you can solve 20 problems untimed, you are ready to move on to more advanced material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP. I still need time to check about various suggestions, thanks. Coincidentally, a few days ago, we noticed that we can sign up for AMC8 test at School, so DC did. We checked the AMC8 questions of 2023 last night, and found a few Qs are very difficult. It seems average score is 10 out of 25. We also noticed that the AMC8 questions are: no real algebra question, no much geometry questions, exponents are also not much asked or very easy one only. So, I am guessing that the later half of intro books are high school math, and not asked in AMC8. When we are doing intro books, about the first half is relatively easy going, and the later half takes time.

So, it seems we don't need to buy and go through any AMC8 prep book.

What is this based on? Although the AMC 8 is "just for fun", and 10 out of 25 is great for a 6th grader, that still leaves a lot of room for improvement, if AMC 8 performance is worth training for in your opinion.

[Anonymous]

To add, the cutoff for the 2022 certificate of acievement (https://amc-reg.maa.org/certificates/8/CertificateofAchievement.pdf), which is awarded to hugh scoring students in 6th grade or below, was 19 out of 25. So that's a score the AMC considers to be remarkable enough for 6th graders and below to deserve a certificate