College clubs unfairly exclusive?

[Anonymous]

Gone are the days when everyone gets a trophy. College sports - varsity, club and intramural. In most schools, the club sports are try-out only, still a pretty high level of competition. The joy at many places is there are a lot of options - it's worth seeing what clubs ARE advertising for spots. When my student was applying for schools he reviewed what it took to participate in clubs he was interested in - so he could evaluate if he was likely to get in as a Freshman and what the procedure was - so if they had meeting he could participate, or over the summer reach out to club members to learn more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Activities that require talent have try-outs. How is someone finding this out for the first time in college?

+1. DD tried out for club soccer team at a big college (15k students). Team took 2 of the 45 girls trying out.

I can speak to this based on my kids' personal experience (and my kid made the team). It's not like club teams post their evaluation criteria publically, so the best a prospective student can do is email the students in charge and ask. However, even that might not get them true answers, because most club teams are student run, and students can change their minds about what they want the teams to be. My kid is on a team that apparently was low-key and accepting to a wider pool of talent when we first looked at the school two years ago. Last year, the club started to go in a more competitive direction, and it is even more competitive this fall. He made the team, but gets to play infrequently, which is not how the club sport was described when we toured last year.

For those blaming the students, we should all agree that it has become more difficult for this generation to connect with each other. Making activities more and more exclusive does little to help those struggling to find their people.

Club sports did not even exist when I was in college, I’d say there are plenty of activities available. There’s just too many helicoptering parents who never want to see their kid not get something.

Are you in college now? One of my other kids, who isn't a stellar athlete, was not good enough to play on a club team. Intramurals? You had to sign up as a team. So how are kids supposed to make connections through sports if they don't have a friend group to create a team?

A good rule of thumb is that the better the college varsity team is at a sport, the better it's club team (i.e., more selective) usually is. So, the Vanderbilt club baseball team is probably really hard to make. On the other hand, if the school does not even offer the varsity sport, then the club team is fairly open.

There are also some schools that have multiple levels of club team, to allow for more opportunity to play.

This is actually not true. The most competitive club teams (at least in soccer) are at schools that DONT offer the sport at the varsity level. For example, BYU has won the mens club soccer national championship like 5 of the last 6 years and does not have a NCAA mens soccer team. Purdue also has a very strong club team (and no NCAA team).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Common at grinder schools, like the Ivies. They want to ensure that you’ll elevate the group, not just attend/join. If you don’t get into a club, the best option is to circumvent it. That is, find a group of like-minded people and start your own exclusive club. Another option is to participate in a similar club in the community. For example, if you want to sing, join the church choir or local musical group.

Er, this is common everywhere -- not only at the grinder schools. My kid is at UMass and parents have complained there, too.

[Anonymous]

They should start their own thing. Rejected from all the a capella groups? Start your own a capella group. Didn't get a role in the play? Find a script with a handful of actors and do your own play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/09/yale-college-undergrad-clubs-competitive/675219/

Yale grad. Get ready for a long post.

It says a lot that one of the clubs she was able to join- the bell ringers referred to in the article, or the Carilloneurs- are one of the most competitive, self-selecting and challenging to get into at Yale. The two people I know who got chosen my year had 1) already done an undergrad year at Julliard and 2) were an accomplished classical and jazz musician who stopped doing paid gigs because they were even more talented in another area. Not saying her complaints aren’t valid, but she’s doing better than most undergraduates and is still unhappy. She’ll get to go on a European tour and ring bells in famous buildings and cathedrals, and she’s still disappointed. That’s very Yale!

I should add that there is an element of social screening at a lot of these clubs and it’s not always a straightforward application process. Some groups do something that could be likened to rush- not only must you apply, but you have to work flat-out for a semester or more and then hope you are chosen while attending parties and socializing along the way.

It’s interesting that it isn’t mentioned how much Yale club culture is impacted by the role of secret societies at Yale.

This Reddit thread alludes to the effort to stand out with an eye towards getting tapped:

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/le7sp/iama_member_of_a_yale_university_secret_society/

Many societies have “taps”, or spots for certain people- newspaper editor, crew captain, etc. So one year’s newspaper editor would choose someone, and it’s understood that person would be the next year’s editor. Extra taps might not be strictly designated but are still passed on to people seen as high achievers. In some ways freshman year club tryout culture is just practice for society taps junior year.

Obviously not everyone makes it into a club, let alone a society, but there is a ton of friction at the end of junior year and during senior year because of societies. When ~10% of seniors are in a society with a tomb/building and not quite half are in a society without one, it’s noticeable on traditional Sunday and Thursday meeting nights. Societies aren’t all-powerful in the way they’re depicted in old movies like The Skulls, but they are like their own mini alumni organizations and do have an impact on job opportunities, etc. and have the kinds of resources and connections that undergrads expect they’ll get by attending Yale but are reserved for only a few.

As an outsider it seems easy to say that’s garbage and why would anyone go along with that, but Yale is a small place and clubs and societies have done a lot to create and preserve power. The people I know who were in societies will never ever admit it but have happened to have extremely fortunate breaks in their career paths and life opportunities that can’t be attributed to sheer talent or experience.

Also Ron DeSantis was in a society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC’s college parent Facebook page is blowing up with parents complaining their DC auditioned for theatre performance/music/improv type clubs, did not get callbacks and are accusing college of being deceptive (saying clubs are not inclusive like college promised in the tours) and kids want to transfer and
parents want to talk to the administration. Is this happening at lots of colleges as club decisions are made? To me, it seems unfair to the kids that do get accepted to the clubs, presumably based on their talent and hard work, not an expectation to walk on.

Anyone who went to college knows that most clubs ARE for anyone who shows up. Come on, though, we all know you don't get to be in a university-level theater production without showing you have singing/dancing/acting skill.

Read the Atlantic article. You're misinformed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC’s college parent Facebook page is blowing up with parents complaining their DC auditioned for theatre performance/music/improv type clubs, did not get callbacks and are accusing college of being deceptive (saying clubs are not inclusive like college promised in the tours) and kids want to transfer and
parents want to talk to the administration. Is this happening at lots of colleges as club decisions are made? To me, it seems unfair to the kids that do get accepted to the clubs, presumably based on their talent and hard work, not an expectation to walk on.

Anyone who went to college knows that most clubs ARE for anyone who shows up. Come on, though, we all know you don't get to be in a university-level theater production without showing you have singing/dancing/acting skill.

Read the Atlantic article. You're misinformed.

Yale grad here with more. There are totally smaller theater opportunities with funding available from residential colleges. They’re shoestring affairs but often have a lot of overlap with the more competitive theater groups. There’s limited theater space and tons of people with interest, so there is a lot of jockeying for funding, tech crew, and black box access.

[Anonymous]

We toured several schools and none made it clear that club teams were not open to all. Every school we toured made it sound like there were teams (sports, etc. with recruited kids), intramural, and clubs. They all said the clubs were open to all and students could participate as much or little as wanted. None indicated any type of gatekeeping. The main difference as explained in the tours was generally that the club teams were more serious then intramural but not as serious as the actual teams. I guess we need to ask more questions if the clubs are something DC is really interested in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They should start their own thing. Rejected from all the a capella groups? Start your own a capella group. Didn't get a role in the play? Find a script with a handful of actors and do your own play.

I was just coming on here to say this! My daughter got rejected from a competitive arts group and she started her own no-cuts group. I highly recommend this and also looking for other opportunities. If you don't get in the main stage production, look at student productions, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We toured several schools and none made it clear that club teams were not open to all. Every school we toured made it sound like there were teams (sports, etc. with recruited kids), intramural, and clubs. They all said the clubs were open to all and students could participate as much or little as wanted. None indicated any type of gatekeeping. The main difference as explained in the tours was generally that the club teams were more serious than intramural but not as serious as the actual teams. I guess we need to ask more questions if the clubs are something DC is really interested in.

It sounds like you are confusing club sports with intramurals. I’ve never heard a college club team described as come when you want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC’s college parent Facebook page is blowing up with parents complaining their DC auditioned for theatre performance/music/improv type clubs, did not get callbacks and are accusing college of being deceptive (saying clubs are not inclusive like college promised in the tours) and kids want to transfer and
parents want to talk to the administration. Is this happening at lots of colleges as club decisions are made? To me, it seems unfair to the kids that do get accepted to the clubs, presumably based on their talent and hard work, not an expectation to walk on.

Anyone who went to college knows that most clubs ARE for anyone who shows up. Come on, though, we all know you don't get to be in a university-level theater production without showing you have singing/dancing/acting skill.

Read the Atlantic article. You're misinformed.

Yale grad here with more. There are totally smaller theater opportunities with funding available from residential colleges. They’re shoestring affairs but often have a lot of overlap with the more competitive theater groups. There’s limited theater space and tons of people with interest, so there is a lot of jockeying for funding, tech crew, and black box access.

Thanks, Rory Gilmore. You have provided some much-needed context.

If the clubs are merely recreational and social, the screening behavior makes no sense.

If the clubs are key pathways to SHOW LEADERSHIP for future resume building, grad school applications, elite secret societies, or recruiting, well then welcome to the Grind Festival that is destroying everything fun or exploratory about college.

[Anonymous]

Why are you are so damn weird? Guessing it’s Penn or another particular school? It’s very common in many many schools that for plays or theater or things like that that you audition. Not everything is about elite schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC’s college parent Facebook page is blowing up with parents complaining their DC auditioned for theatre performance/music/improv type clubs, did not get callbacks and are accusing college of being deceptive (saying clubs are not inclusive like college promised in the tours) and kids want to transfer and
parents want to talk to the administration. Is this happening at lots of colleges as club decisions are made? To me, it seems unfair to the kids that do get accepted to the clubs, presumably based on their talent and hard work, not an expectation to walk on.

Anyone who went to college knows that most clubs ARE for anyone who shows up. Come on, though, we all know you don't get to be in a university-level theater production without showing you have singing/dancing/acting skill.

Read the Atlantic article. You're misinformed.

Yale grad here with more. There are totally smaller theater opportunities with funding available from residential colleges. They’re shoestring affairs but often have a lot of overlap with the more competitive theater groups. There’s limited theater space and tons of people with interest, so there is a lot of jockeying for funding, tech crew, and black box access.

Thanks, Rory Gilmore. You have provided some much-needed context.

If the clubs are merely recreational and social, the screening behavior makes no sense.

If the clubs are key pathways to SHOW LEADERSHIP for future resume building, grad school applications, elite secret societies, or recruiting, well then welcome to the Grind Festival that is destroying everything fun or exploratory about college.

I think the only thing I experienced at Yale that was purely recreational or social was drinking. And even drinking had an annual competitive event with tryouts for teams. I was an alternate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DC’s college parent Facebook page is blowing up with parents complaining their DC auditioned for theatre performance/music/improv type clubs, did not get callbacks and are accusing college of being deceptive (saying clubs are not inclusive like college promised in the tours) and kids want to transfer and
parents want to talk to the administration. Is this happening at lots of colleges as club decisions are made? To me, it seems unfair to the kids that do get accepted to the clubs, presumably based on their talent and hard work, not an expectation to walk on.

WTAF?! I don’t think my parents even knew the clubs I was in. Maybe some of them, but not all. I can’t imagine them ever having anything to do with how they were run.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Activities that require talent have try-outs. How is someone finding this out for the first time in college?

+1. DD tried out for club soccer team at a big college (15k students). Team took 2 of the 45 girls trying out.

Yes. Some of these clubs/activities are insanely competitive. My dd tried out for club soccer at Michigan. Didn't realize what she was walking into and felt a bit out of her league (she did play varsity soccer in HS). I am told that club sports at some schools (i.e., power 5 schools) easily surpass that of a D3 varsity team and could compete with lower level d1 teams