Anyone skipping SAT and/or ACT altogether!

[Anonymous]

It's kind of like how they don't make you run the mile anymore or they give everyone A's. It's all about not hurting feelings not about learning. They will also fire great teachers who try to teach and don't inflate grades/manipulate data for "good numbers"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I would be reluctant to send a “terrible test taker” to college without finding out the reason for the terrible test-taking —- anxiety, depression, adhd, learning disability - I would want to discover and accommodate these before starting college. Many, many college classes consist of only test grades and often as few as 2 - a midterm and a final. That is not great for a “terrible test taker”.

Different poster here, but do you really think that a parent of a “terrible test taker” in high school is just now wondering why? And what, exactly, do you imagine can be done to solve it? My kid has learning disabilities in reading, math, and writing. He’s also very smart. All the accommodations in the world won’t change his testing abilities. But he can still benefit from college! He can still read great books and thing and write about them, do science experiments, and do projects of all sorts. And get a whole bunch of Bs, some Cs, and a flame out D here and there. College is still worth it, if the kid wants to go.

I am PP whom you are addressing. I am the parent of an ADHD/LD kid who took the ACT w/accommodations. I am also a test prep tutor.

First, my comment “I would be reluctant to send a terrible test-taker to college without finding why,” was not at all meant to imply that terrible test takers should not go to college. In retrospect, I can see how you would read it that way. I whole-heartedly agree that terrible test-takers should go to college and definitely benefit from doing so.

But, to answer your question — “do you really think that a parent of a “terrible test taker” in high school is just now wondering why?” — yes, I do. I see it happen - All. The. Time.

As a test prep tutor, I have many, many students come to me in HS who have undiagnosed learning disabilities or other issues like depression or ADHD or who have diagnosed issues but who either don’t believe they qualify for accommodations or have been (illegally) rejected from such accommodations by their school.

Parents often misread the signs of diagnosable and treatable conditions meriting accommodation as - immaturity, stupidity, lack of motivation, disinterest, typical teenage rebelliousness, etc. And parents are often encouraged in this view by school officials. They are not bad parents - they are just not knowledgeable about learning disabilities and/or mental health or disability rights.

There are so many accommodations and varieties of special instruction that can help these kids. With proper prep and accommodations many, many kids can significantly improve and test scores can be helpful in their admission process. I have many students with accommodations who have improved their scores to a point that they are competitive at a schools they would not have been competitive at before prep. And, their college performance can be significantly improved with the right kind of accommodations and instruction.

That said, I also am the person who said, test scores are not necessary if you are comfortable with a handful of schools where your DC’s GPA was in the top 25% of admitted students at the college.

If the GPA is not in the top 25%, then you may be hampered by comparison with other students with similar grades who do have test scores.

This rough guide excludes kids who have some kind of demonstrable “fit” at a particular college - athletics, accomplishment, developed interest, etc.

If a family decides that other parts of the admissions package are strong enough and by comparison the time, effort or money for prep is too much, then that’s a legitimate choice based on consideration of the best way to spend those finite resources.

But, if a family is just saying “she’s a terrible test taker and always will be” without ever having explored why via a psycho-ed evaluation, I think that’s a big mistake.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My kid with severe ADHD chose to prepare intensely for the ACT, which cost a non-negligible amount of money, since with his disability he needed a one-on-one tutor, and I believe that thanks to this and his academically strong profile, he was offered significant merit aid at most of his choices. He was also offered a spot in an academically-rigorous program that surely would not have picked him had he not submitted his ACT and AP scores.

We are also Asian, no hooks, no athletics, and we did not want to risk a test-optional candidacy in that context, before the Supreme Court decision. Now... who knows. Word to the wise - old habits die hard. It will take more than a SC decision to make the common Admissions Officer mortal (usually a young graduate from the same college, the kind that couldn't get a job elsewhere) conceive that Asians don't need higher scores than other students to get in.

I know there are plenty of bright kids who get stellar scores with minimal self-preparation. But if your child has trouble, and you think for some reason that the score can make a difference, as it did for us, then you really need to pay for a reputable private tutor. The group sessions that "guarantee points or your money back" are by definition not the right ones - otherwise they wouldn't need to sell themselves like this.

I love irony: “academically-rigorous!”

Haha

?? Academically rigorous is a thing, so... not sure of your point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I would be reluctant to send a “terrible test taker” to college without finding out the reason for the terrible test-taking —- anxiety, depression, adhd, learning disability - I would want to discover and accommodate these before starting college. Many, many college classes consist of only test grades and often as few as 2 - a midterm and a final. That is not great for a “terrible test taker”.

Different poster here, but do you really think that a parent of a “terrible test taker” in high school is just now wondering why? And what, exactly, do you imagine can be done to solve it? My kid has learning disabilities in reading, math, and writing. He’s also very smart. All the accommodations in the world won’t change his testing abilities. But he can still benefit from college! He can still read great books and thing and write about them, do science experiments, and do projects of all sorts. And get a whole bunch of Bs, some Cs, and a flame out D here and there. College is still worth it, if the kid wants to go.

I am PP whom you are addressing. I am the parent of an ADHD/LD kid who took the ACT w/accommodations. I am also a test prep tutor.

First, my comment “I would be reluctant to send a terrible test-taker to college without finding why,” was not at all meant to imply that terrible test takers should not go to college. In retrospect, I can see how you would read it that way. I whole-heartedly agree that terrible test-takers should go to college and definitely benefit from doing so.

But, to answer your question — “do you really think that a parent of a “terrible test taker” in high school is just now wondering why?” — yes, I do. I see it happen - All. The. Time.

As a test prep tutor, I have many, many students come to me in HS who have undiagnosed learning disabilities or other issues like depression or ADHD or who have diagnosed issues but who either don’t believe they qualify for accommodations or have been (illegally) rejected from such accommodations by their school.

Parents often misread the signs of diagnosable and treatable conditions meriting accommodation as - immaturity, stupidity, lack of motivation, disinterest, typical teenage rebelliousness, etc. And parents are often encouraged in this view by school officials. They are not bad parents - they are just not knowledgeable about learning disabilities and/or mental health or disability rights.

There are so many accommodations and varieties of special instruction that can help these kids. With proper prep and accommodations many, many kids can significantly improve and test scores can be helpful in their admission process. I have many students with accommodations who have improved their scores to a point that they are competitive at a schools they would not have been competitive at before prep. And, their college performance can be significantly improved with the right kind of accommodations and instruction.

That said, I also am the person who said, test scores are not necessary if you are comfortable with a handful of schools where your DC’s GPA was in the top 25% of admitted students at the college.

If the GPA is not in the top 25%, then you may be hampered by comparison with other students with similar grades who do have test scores.

This rough guide excludes kids who have some kind of demonstrable “fit” at a particular college - athletics, accomplishment, developed interest, etc.

If a family decides that other parts of the admissions package are strong enough and by comparison the time, effort or money for prep is too much, then that’s a legitimate choice based on consideration of the best way to spend those finite resources.

But, if a family is just saying “she’s a terrible test taker and always will be” without ever having explored why via a psycho-ed evaluation, I think that’s a big mistake.

OP here and I really appreciate this perspective. DD has a 504 for anxiety. We had her tested in the 2nd grade for suspected dyslexia and ADHD. I am dyslexic and DH has ADHD. She didn’t meet the criteria for either disability and was denied an IEP. We retested her in 5th grade and anxiety was the diagnosis so we fought for a 504. She hasn’t been retested since and I’m wondering whether she should be. Her performance in school is markedly stronger than her performance on higher pressure tests like AP, ACT, or SAT. To me, this disconnect speaks to grade inflation, anxiety, undiagnosed learning disabilities, or a combination of the above.

I know she has the ability to succeed in college. She’s bright and a hard worker. Her teachers love her and she does well in school. I was the same way. I didn’t discover I was dyslexic until my last term in college when I had a near breakdown and left school during finals. I still graduated Phi Beta Kappa but the emotional burden of feeling stupid and overwhelmed took a toll.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I would be reluctant to send a “terrible test taker” to college without finding out the reason for the terrible test-taking —- anxiety, depression, adhd, learning disability - I would want to discover and accommodate these before starting college. Many, many college classes consist of only test grades and often as few as 2 - a midterm and a final. That is not great for a “terrible test taker”.

Different poster here, but do you really think that a parent of a “terrible test taker” in high school is just now wondering why? And what, exactly, do you imagine can be done to solve it? My kid has learning disabilities in reading, math, and writing. He’s also very smart. All the accommodations in the world won’t change his testing abilities. But he can still benefit from college! He can still read great books and thing and write about them, do science experiments, and do projects of all sorts. And get a whole bunch of Bs, some Cs, and a flame out D here and there. College is still worth it, if the kid wants to go.

I am PP whom you are addressing. I am the parent of an ADHD/LD kid who took the ACT w/accommodations. I am also a test prep tutor.

First, my comment “I would be reluctant to send a terrible test-taker to college without finding why,” was not at all meant to imply that terrible test takers should not go to college. In retrospect, I can see how you would read it that way. I whole-heartedly agree that terrible test-takers should go to college and definitely benefit from doing so.

But, to answer your question — “do you really think that a parent of a “terrible test taker” in high school is just now wondering why?” — yes, I do. I see it happen - All. The. Time.

As a test prep tutor, I have many, many students come to me in HS who have undiagnosed learning disabilities or other issues like depression or ADHD or who have diagnosed issues but who either don’t believe they qualify for accommodations or have been (illegally) rejected from such accommodations by their school.

Parents often misread the signs of diagnosable and treatable conditions meriting accommodation as - immaturity, stupidity, lack of motivation, disinterest, typical teenage rebelliousness, etc. And parents are often encouraged in this view by school officials. They are not bad parents - they are just not knowledgeable about learning disabilities and/or mental health or disability rights.

There are so many accommodations and varieties of special instruction that can help these kids. With proper prep and accommodations many, many kids can significantly improve and test scores can be helpful in their admission process. I have many students with accommodations who have improved their scores to a point that they are competitive at a schools they would not have been competitive at before prep. And, their college performance can be significantly improved with the right kind of accommodations and instruction.

That said, I also am the person who said, test scores are not necessary if you are comfortable with a handful of schools where your DC’s GPA was in the top 25% of admitted students at the college.

If the GPA is not in the top 25%, then you may be hampered by comparison with other students with similar grades who do have test scores.

This rough guide excludes kids who have some kind of demonstrable “fit” at a particular college - athletics, accomplishment, developed interest, etc.

If a family decides that other parts of the admissions package are strong enough and by comparison the time, effort or money for prep is too much, then that’s a legitimate choice based on consideration of the best way to spend those finite resources.

But, if a family is just saying “she’s a terrible test taker and always will be” without ever having explored why via a psycho-ed evaluation, I think that’s a big mistake.

OP here and I really appreciate this perspective. DD has a 504 for anxiety. We had her tested in the 2nd grade for suspected dyslexia and ADHD. I am dyslexic and DH has ADHD. She didn’t meet the criteria for either disability and was denied an IEP. We retested her in 5th grade and anxiety was the diagnosis so we fought for a 504. She hasn’t been retested since and I’m wondering whether she should be. Her performance in school is markedly stronger than her performance on higher pressure tests like AP, ACT, or SAT. To me, this disconnect speaks to grade inflation, anxiety, undiagnosed learning disabilities, or a combination of the above.

I know she has the ability to succeed in college. She’s bright and a hard worker. Her teachers love her and she does well in school. I was the same way. I didn’t discover I was dyslexic until my last term in college when I had a near breakdown and left school during finals. I still graduated Phi Beta Kappa but the emotional burden of feeling stupid and overwhelmed took a toll.

Op, PP here. Has she had a full psychoed eval? If not, that is definitely worth doing before Jr yr.

Does she have an extra-time accommodation? If so, what other tools for managing anxiety does she have — behavior management learned during CBT therapy? Medication? I find that a lot of my students with anxiety can make significant improvements over time, but it does take effort. The repeated practice desensitizes the anxiety. Data collection in practice often shows concretely that the student is improving, which also helps with anxiety. And, having a plan to test more than once helps diminish anxiety.

OTOH, as a parent, I’m not wild about coping with anxiety by just deciding to avoid something. I would rather my DC get used to figuring out how to cope and manage thru and still try even if the outcome isn’t an A. Also - what if you want to go into a career that requires a licensing exam - lawyer, CPA, EMT, financial advisor, etc?

OTOH, I can understand that there is only so much time in the day, and we all make choices about the most effective use of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DD has a weighted GPA of 4.5 at a W school, strong extracurriculars, and has had disappointing results on practice SATs and ACTs. 1000 and 24 respectively. It’s just not her strength. She won’t be sending scores and we’re not wasting time with lots of prep because her scores will never be her selling point.

This is going to be my kid. Great student, 4 APs by the end of sophomore year. Horrible test taker!. I’m glad to read this.

[Anonymous]

No we didn’t consider this and my kid doesn’t do well with standardized test because we needed merit aid and the schools she was applying to required the score for aid and not admissions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DD has a weighted GPA of 4.5 at a W school, strong extracurriculars, and has had disappointing results on practice SATs and ACTs. 1000 and 24 respectively. It’s just not her strength. She won’t be sending scores and we’re not wasting time with lots of prep because her scores will never be her selling point.

This is going to be my kid. Great student, 4 APs by the end of sophomore year. Horrible test taker!. I’m glad to read this.

But if she is a terrible test taker, how did she do on her AP tests?

[Anonymous]

DS is considering skipping the SAT. He tests so poorly that his results won’t open doors for him even if he preps. His grades, rigor, and ECs are strong. All of the schools he wants are TO through 2025 and some indefinitely.

[Anonymous]

Don't skip it. Take the test and use it if it will help. This is the one time in high school they can take a test and then just ignore it if the results aren't good.

[Anonymous]

The schools that say test optional actually take those tests into consideration whether you believe it or not.

[Anonymous]

If you submit the test scores they will look at them. If you don't then they just move on. Your application will be judged by what is there. Not by what is not there.

[Anonymous]

There are really two questions here. The first is, is test optional really test optional and the second question is does my kid need to take the SAT or ACT?

If your kid is not a URM or ADLC applicant and you are applying to a top 40-50 school TO is not really TO. You are competing with about 75 thousand kids who will have GPAs of 4.4 or 4.5 validated by SAT/ACT scores of 1500+/35+ and they will get the remaining slots unless your kid as really great essays and recommendations. For schools in the 50-100 range you will have and advantage if you can submit test scores that validate your GPA. For schools outside the top 100 TO is TO and you don’t have to stress if your kid does not do well on standardized tests.

Yes there are some schools like the UC system that won’t take test scores and some like MIT that will absolutely require test scores.

The reason test scores have gone up at many schools is simply a matter of statistics. Kids who don’t test well don’t submit them to TO schools, kids that do test well do submit them. So I school that had an accepted student profile of 1450 at the 50th percentile in the past now are at 1500 or more.

Most URM and ADLC candidates won’t submit test scores because they don’t need to do so.

So in the end the expectation level of where you child want to go to college drives the choice of testing or not and what level of preparation is needed to get a test score that will make your application competitive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are really two questions here. The first is, is test optional really test optional and the second question is does my kid need to take the SAT or ACT?

If your kid is not a URM or ADLC applicant and you are applying to a top 40-50 school TO is not really TO. You are competing with about 75 thousand kids who will have GPAs of 4.4 or 4.5 validated by SAT/ACT scores of 1500+/35+ and they will get the remaining slots unless your kid as really great essays and recommendations. For schools in the 50-100 range you will have and advantage if you can submit test scores that validate your GPA. For schools outside the top 100 TO is TO and you don’t have to stress if your kid does not do well on standardized tests.

Yes there are some schools like the UC system that won’t take test scores and some like MIT that will absolutely require test scores.

The reason test scores have gone up at many schools is simply a matter of statistics. Kids who don’t test well don’t submit them to TO schools, kids that do test well do submit them. So I school that had an accepted student profile of 1450 at the 50th percentile in the past now are at 1500 or more.

Most URM and ADLC candidates won’t submit test scores because they don’t need to do so.

So in the end the expectation level of where you child want to go to college drives the choice of testing or not and what level of preparation is needed to get a test score that will make your application competitive.

This all makes sense, but I suspect you have no actual data to support it. Do you work in college admissions currently? If not, this advice seems outdated, especially with regards to URM. Anecdotally, I know several students who were accepted to T100 schools TO this year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are really two questions here. The first is, is test optional really test optional and the second question is does my kid need to take the SAT or ACT?

If your kid is not a URM or ADLC applicant and you are applying to a top 40-50 school TO is not really TO. You are competing with about 75 thousand kids who will have GPAs of 4.4 or 4.5 validated by SAT/ACT scores of 1500+/35+ and they will get the remaining slots unless your kid as really great essays and recommendations. For schools in the 50-100 range you will have and advantage if you can submit test scores that validate your GPA. For schools outside the top 100 TO is TO and you don’t have to stress if your kid does not do well on standardized tests.

Yes there are some schools like the UC system that won’t take test scores and some like MIT that will absolutely require test scores.

The reason test scores have gone up at many schools is simply a matter of statistics. Kids who don’t test well don’t submit them to TO schools, kids that do test well do submit them. So I school that had an accepted student profile of 1450 at the 50th percentile in the past now are at 1500 or more.

Most URM and ADLC candidates won’t submit test scores because they don’t need to do so.

So in the end the expectation level of where you child want to go to college drives the choice of testing or not and what level of preparation is needed to get a test score that will make your application competitive.

I know three black students that scored 1500+ this year. Only one MCPS student. Another is a niece in California. The the other is friends of a friend. Point being that there are some "URM" kids with the same competitive scores and they will be submitting them.