Pools that recruit should be in their own division

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

[Anonymous]

Kent Gardens “happens” to have a ton of swimmers from Machine….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

Tuckahoe, Cheterbrook, and Overlee have dominated for years now. McLean finished in third in 2015 and 2012 (the other three were 1,2, and 4 those years). No other pool cracked the top three since 2009 and 2007 for the top two. The last pool outside of those three to win was in 2005 (2, 3, 4 was Chesterbrook, Overlee, Tuckahoe). You have to go back to 1989 for the last time none of those pools were in the top 3. If they aren't recruiting or manipulating their waitlists, how is it that Donaldson Run, Highlands, Kent Gardens, Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills, Highpoint, Langley can't compete?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a team rep for an upper third pool in NVSL. Our pool does not recruit. We have a waitlist and take from the surrounding neighborhoods.

I was shocked the number of Club parents that reach out directly to join our pool and tell me that I MUST take their swimmer because they are so fast and then they send me times, etc. I explain our waitlist, etc, and they don't seem to get it.

We have also experienced quite good swimmers from upper divisions wanting to "come down" to our pool so their kid can swim A meets and be a star. This confuses me even more, because those upper divisions are not doing a great job with their non- A meet kids.

We have had a few of these types get on our waitlist and make the switch to our team. The swimmers still are not dominating A meets but they get into them more than they would have done at their previous pool.

Top third is not top. Top one or two divisions is top. There are also pools where the coach brings in their own winter swimmers to fill out a team.

Why is it such a big deal?

Because there is a difference between parents throwing times at a D9 pool to get off of the waitlist and Tuckahoe, Chesterbrook and Overlee grabbing the best PVSL swimmers every year.

What do these words mean?
Who cares where the best swimmers are?
Are there kids who don't get to swim on any team at all because there are no spots available locally?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

Tuckahoe, Cheterbrook, and Overlee have dominated for years now. McLean finished in third in 2015 and 2012 (the other three were 1,2, and 4 those years). No other pool cracked the top three since 2009 and 2007 for the top two. The last pool outside of those three to win was in 2005 (2, 3, 4 was Chesterbrook, Overlee, Tuckahoe). You have to go back to 1989 for the last time none of those pools were in the top 3. If they aren't recruiting or manipulating their waitlists, how is it that Donaldson Run, Highlands, Kent Gardens, Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills, Highpoint, Langley can't compete?

I haven’t been to every pool on this list (including Tuckahoe) but I’ve been to most. Compared to the others i have seen , Overlee and Chesterbrook are head and shoulders larger and better facilities which also likely means they have far larger memberships. Donaldson Run is beautiful and in a great location but you have to live in a certain area to be able to join. Dominion Hills and Arlington Forest are in less desirable parts of Arlington and I think AF is restricted to only people living in a certain geographical area.

In the course of my child’s meets I have been to a number of other clubs which are also very impressive but just aren’t in the same small area.

[Anonymous]

You have to understand the mentality at Chesterbrook, Overlee, and Tuckahoe...it is cult like. The kids are crazy...the parents more so...at the Tuckahoe/Overlee meet it was the parents taunting Overlee at the end of the meet not the swimmers....

The reason why they are so good is that summer swim consumes those families...the kids swim year round, no one EVER misses a summer meet, their siblings start young and there is an expectation to win. At relay Carnival there are parents coming to watch and to cheer for the team that don't have kids swimming in it. If they don't win their coaches get fired. If they don't win more pressure is put on families to either swim more in the winter or get private lessons.

That being said the kids love it and buy into it....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

Tuckahoe, Cheterbrook, and Overlee have dominated for years now. McLean finished in third in 2015 and 2012 (the other three were 1,2, and 4 those years). No other pool cracked the top three since 2009 and 2007 for the top two. The last pool outside of those three to win was in 2005 (2, 3, 4 was Chesterbrook, Overlee, Tuckahoe). You have to go back to 1989 for the last time none of those pools were in the top 3. If they aren't recruiting or manipulating their waitlists, how is it that Donaldson Run, Highlands, Kent Gardens, Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills, Highpoint, Langley can't compete?

Overlee has 800 families.
Chesterbrook has 640 families
Tuckahoe has over 3000 members

Donaldson Run has 650 families, and a restricted geographic area
Highlands has ??? I'm not sure
Kent Gardens is small- more like 350 maybe?
High Point is 400. The rest of your list is similar- 350-400. That is 1/2 the size of the 'big 3.' That is the answer. I get that it is really important for a lot of people to believe there is 'recruiting' happening. The only one I think this is happening at is possibly Chesterbrook- the way they do the waitlist is open to manipulation. I know families who have been on the Overlee waitlist for years that have top PVS and NVSL swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

Tuckahoe, Cheterbrook, and Overlee have dominated for years now. McLean finished in third in 2015 and 2012 (the other three were 1,2, and 4 those years). No other pool cracked the top three since 2009 and 2007 for the top two. The last pool outside of those three to win was in 2005 (2, 3, 4 was Chesterbrook, Overlee, Tuckahoe). You have to go back to 1989 for the last time none of those pools were in the top 3. If they aren't recruiting or manipulating their waitlists, how is it that Donaldson Run, Highlands, Kent Gardens, Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills, Highpoint, Langley can't compete?

I haven’t been to every pool on this list (including Tuckahoe) but I’ve been to most. Compared to the others i have seen , Overlee and Chesterbrook are head and shoulders larger and better facilities which also likely means they have far larger memberships. Donaldson Run is beautiful and in a great location but you have to live in a certain area to be able to join. Dominion Hills and Arlington Forest are in less desirable parts of Arlington and I think AF is restricted to only people living in a certain geographical area.

In the course of my child’s meets I have been to a number of other clubs which are also very impressive but just aren’t in the same small area.

I’m going to throw a Burke team into the mix. We aren’t at Old Keene Mill but we aren't far from them and I’m curious to see how they do in Div 1 next year. (I doubt they’ll stay where they are.) Just 8 years ago they were in Division 15. Our team has stayed pretty steady between 13 and 16 and it’s crazy how fast they’ve moved up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

Tuckahoe, Cheterbrook, and Overlee have dominated for years now. McLean finished in third in 2015 and 2012 (the other three were 1,2, and 4 those years). No other pool cracked the top three since 2009 and 2007 for the top two. The last pool outside of those three to win was in 2005 (2, 3, 4 was Chesterbrook, Overlee, Tuckahoe). You have to go back to 1989 for the last time none of those pools were in the top 3. If they aren't recruiting or manipulating their waitlists, how is it that Donaldson Run, Highlands, Kent Gardens, Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills, Highpoint, Langley can't compete?

I haven’t been to every pool on this list (including Tuckahoe) but I’ve been to most. Compared to the others i have seen , Overlee and Chesterbrook are head and shoulders larger and better facilities which also likely means they have far larger memberships. Donaldson Run is beautiful and in a great location but you have to live in a certain area to be able to join. Dominion Hills and Arlington Forest are in less desirable parts of Arlington and I think AF is restricted to only people living in a certain geographical area.

In the course of my child’s meets I have been to a number of other clubs which are also very impressive but just aren’t in the same small area.

I’m going to throw a Burke team into the mix. We aren’t at Old Keene Mill but we aren't far from them and I’m curious to see how they do in Div 1 next year. (I doubt they’ll stay where they are.) Just 8 years ago they were in Division 15. Our team has stayed pretty steady between 13 and 16 and it’s crazy how fast they’ve moved up.

Agree that they will move up. But I think if you do the virtual meets it doesn’t look great for them in Div 1, somewhat similar to McLean this year. I remember when we faced them last year in Div 3 a lot of their strong swimmers had the same 2 or 3 three last names so I’m guessing a couple of large families with strong swimmers have really pulled them up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our league is very lopsided in the divisions with pools that have open membership and recruit heavily decimating pools that have a waitlist and cannot recruit. Seems silly (and unfair and unfun) to have them in the same division.

I think the bigger problem is pools creating arbitrary geographic boundaries. Why not petition your pool to remove the boundaries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do not believe this happens. I have a top PVS swimmer who has been going to NVSL all stars every year since they were 7 and we have never been contacted by one of those pools. Those top 3 pools are where they are because of geography combined with large memberships.

Bingo! The answer is size of membership. McLean has about 400-450 members, and not all of them join for swim. It has a sizeable contingent of tennis players as well.

BTW Kent Gardens has a couple of large swim families. It really helps when you have 4-6 good swimmers in one membership.

Their memberships aren't any larger than other pools in the top 10 divisions and there is nothing in the water that makes their kids faster. Their dominance is long enough standing that anyone who believes they don't recruit or that their waiting lists don't move for fast swimmers probably believes that the WWE is real

Almost all the pools in the top 2 divisions are from a very small geographical area - mostly Arlington and McLean. These pools are not getting kids from Springfield or further out in Nova. The area happens to have a large proportion of families that try to get their kids into swim and have them participate in club swim at a young age. The other pools with as large or larger memberships (including HOAs) likely don’t have nearly the proportion that do year round swim.

If that was true other pools in that area would compete with the top 3, but they don't

Which other pools in the area do you think should ? Look at the map on the NVSL website. The pools in that area are:
Donaldson Run - check
Highlands Swim. - check
Chesterbrook - check
Kent Gardens - check (amazing they can be here despite their small pool)
Tuckahoe - Check
Overlee - check

Others on the periphery are Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills and High Point. Langley is Div 2, High Point is Div 3 .

Tuckahoe, Cheterbrook, and Overlee have dominated for years now. McLean finished in third in 2015 and 2012 (the other three were 1,2, and 4 those years). No other pool cracked the top three since 2009 and 2007 for the top two. The last pool outside of those three to win was in 2005 (2, 3, 4 was Chesterbrook, Overlee, Tuckahoe). You have to go back to 1989 for the last time none of those pools were in the top 3. If they aren't recruiting or manipulating their waitlists, how is it that Donaldson Run, Highlands, Kent Gardens, Langley, Arlington Forest, Dominion Hills, Highpoint, Langley can't compete?

Overlee has 800 families.
Chesterbrook has 640 families
Tuckahoe has over 3000 members

Donaldson Run has 650 families, and a restricted geographic area
Highlands has ??? I'm not sure
Kent Gardens is small- more like 350 maybe?
High Point is 400. The rest of your list is similar- 350-400. That is 1/2 the size of the 'big 3.' That is the answer. I get that it is really important for a lot of people to believe there is 'recruiting' happening. The only one I think this is happening at is possibly Chesterbrook- the way they do the waitlist is open to manipulation. I know families who have been on the Overlee waitlist for years that have top PVS and NVSL swimmers.

Bingo! The answer is size of membership AND the big 3 have more than one pool. I understand some of them don’t swim the A meet and B meet swimmers together.

McLean has about 400-450 members, and not all of them join for swim. It has a sizeable contingent of tennis players as well.

BTW Kent Gardens has a couple of large swim families. It really helps when you have 4-6 good swimmers in one membership.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our league is very lopsided in the divisions with pools that have open membership and recruit heavily decimating pools that have a waitlist and cannot recruit. Seems silly (and unfair and unfun) to have them in the same division.

In MCSL this is becoming a non-issue. The recruiting teams are almost entirely in A and B. So if you are in C through O it won’t affect you much. No fun for the true neighborhood pools who don’t recruit. But does it really matter whether the unspirited teams from Rockville or Bethesda or stonebridge wins the league? They are all teams from 9am-11am on saturdays. Doesn’t mean much besides that.

What MCSL teams recruit? We are in B and have never heard of this at our pool.

The biggest offenders are the public pools (Rockville and Bethesda, and previously upper county, Germantown and Glenmont). Stonebridge and Potomac are chronic recruiters. Country Glen even got in the mix this year

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our league is very lopsided in the divisions with pools that have open membership and recruit heavily decimating pools that have a waitlist and cannot recruit. Seems silly (and unfair and unfun) to have them in the same division.

In MCSL this is becoming a non-issue. The recruiting teams are almost entirely in A and B. So if you are in C through O it won’t affect you much. No fun for the true neighborhood pools who don’t recruit. But does it really matter whether the unspirited teams from Rockville or Bethesda or stonebridge wins the league? They are all teams from 9am-11am on saturdays. Doesn’t mean much besides that.

What MCSL teams recruit? We are in B and have never heard of this at our pool.

I've heard of Potomac Swim and Tennis recruiting.