New Black Panther case

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Are you speaking for yourself?

No. While I long ago realized that being a white male bestowed many privileges upon me, I also realized that those with less privilege were not the threat they are made out to be. To the contrary, that sort of tribalism is simply the age-old game of divide and conquer.

[Anonymous]

To deny that white privilege, male privilege, hetero privilege, Christian privilege, etc, etc, etc exist is to deny reality. Everyone has some privilege, but some much more than others. The problem is when people assume that their privilege is the norm and is somehow rightfully earned or that they are otherwise entitled to it. When their privilege is challenged it is seen as a personal affront and attack on something they are entitled to. Couple that with scare-tactics used to spin marginalized groups looking for equality into terrorizing groups want to take others down and you see how we end up in the position we are in.

Compare it to the gay marriage debate... anti-SSM people have garnered a lot of support by preaching that SSM will somehow do damage to heterosexual marriage. It won't. But they peddle the idea that extending a right/privilege to others somehow lessens it for those who already enjoy, which is patently false, but preys on people's fears that the big bad bogeymen (be they black, Muslim, gay whatever) are out to get them and enslave them. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Anonymous]

How illuminating! And on this board, many people seem to view white males as the big bad bogeyman out to get and enslave them. I guess a warped sense of reality is a two-way street!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How illuminating! And on this board, many people seem to view white males as the big bad bogeyman out to get and enslave them. I guess a warped sense of reality is a two-way street!

It's not a street, it's a giant arena in which we all sit. No two people see the same world about them; delve deep and you find differences in the fundamental precepts on which we base our lives.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How illuminating! And on this board, many people seem to view white males as the big bad bogeyman out to get and enslave them. I guess a warped sense of reality is a two-way street!

Let's see... what does history tell us is more likely... white males enslaving or otherwise exploiting/marginalizing women, people of color, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, LGBTQ -OR- the big, bad, Muslim, African president wanting to tear down our country and build up a United Arab States of Kenya?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How illuminating! And on this board, many people seem to view white males as the big bad bogeyman out to get and enslave them. I guess a warped sense of reality is a two-way street!

Let's see... what does history tell us is more likely... white males enslaving or otherwise exploiting/marginalizing women, people of color, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, LGBTQ -OR- the big, bad, Muslim, African president wanting to tear down our country and build up a United Arab States of Kenya?

As far as I can tell (student of history here) everyone has enslaved/exploited everyone at some point. Case in point--the word 'slave' is suspected to have its origins in 'SLAV' -- a people who are not exactly African in origin, and were traded in Medieval Times downriver to the Byzantine empire ("Slavery flourished in the Byzantine Empire, and the pirates of the Mediterranean continued their custom of enslaving the victims of their raids. Islam, like Christianity, accepted slavery, and it became a standard institution in Muslim lands, where most slaves were African in origin. In Islamic life, keeping slaves was largely a sign of wealth, with slaves used as soldiers, concubines, cooks, and entertainers and to perform a variety of other functions. Another form of Muslim slavery was in the eunuch guardians of the harems; eunuchs had been widely known in Greek, Roman, and especially Byzantine times, but it was among the Muslims and in East Asia that they were to survive longest. In Muslim countries, slavery and freedom had a much more fluid boundary than in the West, with some slaves and former slaves reaching positions of great power and prestige."http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/bus/A0861124.html).

What I do know is that our mostly white, male, Christian founding fathers (with the help of women, blacks, Jews etc.), combining the often secular rationalism of the 'Enlightenment' and the English principles in the Magna Carta, and lots of other philosophers/currents of the time-- gave us the first democracy on the planet since the pseudo-democracies of Ancient Greece and Rome. For breaking free from tyranny, and giving us a society that we have worked as a people to 'perfect' ever since (and the democratic mechanism to address injustice where we see it) I specifically tip my hat to them. White males, in my view, have given far more than they have taken. Thank you white men!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How illuminating! And on this board, many people seem to view white males as the big bad bogeyman out to get and enslave them. I guess a warped sense of reality is a two-way street!

Let's see... what does history tell us is more likely... white males enslaving or otherwise exploiting/marginalizing women, people of color, ethnic minorities, religious minorities, LGBTQ -OR- the big, bad, Muslim, African president wanting to tear down our country and build up a United Arab States of Kenya?

As far as I can tell (student of history here) everyone has enslaved/exploited everyone at some point. Case in point--the word 'slave' is suspected to have its origins in 'SLAV' -- a people who are not exactly African in origin, and were traded in Medieval Times downriver to the Byzantine empire ("Slavery flourished in the Byzantine Empire, and the pirates of the Mediterranean continued their custom of enslaving the victims of their raids. Islam, like Christianity, accepted slavery, and it became a standard institution in Muslim lands, where most slaves were African in origin. In Islamic life, keeping slaves was largely a sign of wealth, with slaves used as soldiers, concubines, cooks, and entertainers and to perform a variety of other functions. Another form of Muslim slavery was in the eunuch guardians of the harems; eunuchs had been widely known in Greek, Roman, and especially Byzantine times, but it was among the Muslims and in East Asia that they were to survive longest. In Muslim countries, slavery and freedom had a much more fluid boundary than in the West, with some slaves and former slaves reaching positions of great power and prestige."http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/bus/A0861124.html).

What I do know is that our mostly white, male, Christian founding fathers (with the help of women, blacks, Jews etc.), combining the often secular rationalism of the 'Enlightenment' and the English principles in the Magna Carta, and lots of other philosophers/currents of the time-- gave us the first democracy on the planet since the pseudo-democracies of Ancient Greece and Rome. For breaking free from tyranny, and giving us a society that we have worked as a people to 'perfect' ever since (and the democratic mechanism to address injustice where we see it) I specifically tip my hat to them. White males, in my view, have given far more than they have taken. Thank you white men!

Wow. This is just scary. You call yourself a "student of history" and want to look at our current situation in the context of things that happened thousands of years ago, ignoring the history of our OWN NATION all along. Are you serious??? Delusional, party of one...

[Anonymous]

What have I said that's delusional? Every group of people in the world have enslaved or colluded in the enslavement of another. some still do in parts of Africa sadly. Not sure why white men are the bogeymen here? I did not say that historically America has had no faults, including the founding sin of slavery, which BTW, white men died to end. I am not going to jump on the oppression bandwagon however, but have fun on your ride!

[Anonymous]

I am talking about American history, because we are talking about issues in America, here. You say that white men died to end slavery... how about all the Africans that died IN slavery? In OUR NATION'S history, we have a long-established pattern of white males exploiting women, people of color, ethnic minorities (many whom we consider 'white' now were not always considered as such and were persecuted, such as the Irish and Italian immigrants), religious minorities, and LGBTQ. This is fact. Does that mean every white person now is an OPPRESSOR? But, looking at our nation's history and the mindset that still pervades a lot of Americans now, there is much more to fear from white males than their is any other individual group or even other groups collectively.

You want to ignore oppression. Good for you! You have the privilege to do that because no one is oppressing you. But for those who ARE oppressed, this is not an option. And for those who do have privilege (I am a white, Christian, hetero male myself) and recognize the injustice of the system we've created, we choose to fight for equity and justice.

Give me one concrete example of white males in America being oppressed because of being white and/or male. (Note: The absence of privilege does NOT equal oppression.) I'm sure there might be a relative few, though I doubt any are at the hands of the marginalized groups I've discussed. Then compare that to the CONTINUED oppression that goes on for these groups and tell me again how bad white males have it despite all their good deeds.

[Anonymous]

And we have a long history of white men fighting to change oppression, including setting up a founding system of government that works better than most others (in the world) at allowing us, as a people, to do that. You do know that white men stood alongside black men during the Civil Rights movement, no, and some died? I am not insulting black Americans (married to one) but defending white Americans. If you live in an either/or world (white bad, black good) have at it. Enjoy your little cup of oppression.

[Anonymous]

BTW--lots of evangelicals in America (including, shocker (!) white conservatives) are involved in fighting to end modern slavery in Africa. Are you? Or perhaps female circumcision since you care about gender oppression?

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN12395092 : "DALLAS, April 2 (Reuters) - U.S. evangelical Christians are divided on global warming, the minimum wage and other issues, but they are united behind a new campaign to end modern slavery around the world..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa: "In Niger, where the practice of slavery was outlawed in 2003, a study found that almost 8% of the population are still slaves.[13] Slavery dates back for centuries in Niger and was finally criminalised in 2003, after five years of lobbying by Anti-Slavery International and the Nigerian human-rights group Timidria.[14] More than 870,000 people still live in conditions of forced labour, according to Timidria, a local human rights group.[15][16]"

[Anonymous]

I think this argument has an obvious solution: Recognize that both of your positions are evidence of the fact that exploitation is done by people in power, and in our country, power has been held by white Christian men, so they are responsible for most of the exploitation.

On the original issue, standing there brandishing a club was wrong, and he should have been removed -- as he was. But not every wrong action merits legal prosecution, and sometimes there is disagreement about where that line is drawn. There does not appear to be evidence that anyone was denied the right to vote, so it may be difficult to prove that an actual crime was committed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this argument has an obvious solution: Recognize that both of your positions are evidence of the fact that exploitation is done by people in power, and in our country, power has been held by white Christian men, so they are responsible for most of the exploitation.

On the original issue, standing there brandishing a club was wrong, and he should have been removed -- as he was. But not every wrong action merits legal prosecution, and sometimes there is disagreement about where that line is drawn. There does not appear to be evidence that anyone was denied the right to vote, so it may be difficult to prove that an actual crime was committed.

While I appreciate your searching for a middle ground, by your logic now Obama is responsible top-down for systemic exploitation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this argument has an obvious solution: Recognize that both of your positions are evidence of the fact that exploitation is done by people in power, and in our country, power has been held by white Christian men, so they are responsible for most of the exploitation.

On the original issue, standing there brandishing a club was wrong, and he should have been removed -- as he was. But not every wrong action merits legal prosecution, and sometimes there is disagreement about where that line is drawn. There does not appear to be evidence that anyone was denied the right to vote, so it may be difficult to prove that an actual crime was committed.

While I appreciate your searching for a middle ground, by your logic now Obama is responsible top-down for systemic exploitation

You appear to see the word "all" in the clause you bold-faced. Oddly, I can't locate it. The point is that where exploitation is done, it is by people in power. Almost too obvious to be worth saying, I admit, but very different from claiming that anyone in power is guilty of exploitation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this argument has an obvious solution: Recognize that both of your positions are evidence of the fact that exploitation is done by people in power, and in our country, power has been held by white Christian men, so they are responsible for most of the exploitation.

On the original issue, standing there brandishing a club was wrong, and he should have been removed -- as he was. But not every wrong action merits legal prosecution, and sometimes there is disagreement about where that line is drawn. There does not appear to be evidence that anyone was denied the right to vote, so it may be difficult to prove that an actual crime was committed.

While I appreciate your searching for a middle ground, by your logic now Obama is responsible top-down for systemic exploitation

That's crap and you know it. The original poster there did a great job of demonstrating the middle ground between our positions. And you take the BS rout and say, "Well, there is a black president so now it's all HIS fault." That is nonsense. If we have 300+ years of black leadership and essentially a black monopoly on political, economic, and social power and STILL see the level of exploitation we've seen over the last 300+ years, maybe you're on to something. But until then, get off it.

No, not all white guys are evil. They are not the only people in history to have done wrong. Many of them have been integral to the causes of racial equality, gender equality, and much, much more. I never denied that. My point was only that, as an aggregate group, white males are responsible for most, if not all, of the oppression we've seen in our nation's history. And, yes, they are responsible for a lot of the good, but that is primarily because A) they excluded anyone else from being involved and B) they were only in a position to do so because of their exploitation. For instance, would the founder's intent for our nation have led to where we are today if it wasn't built on lands stolen from Native Americans on with the labor of enslaved Africans? So yes, let's give credit where credit is due and blame where blame is due. And, as we move forward, let's think about whether we want the historical power structures to continue or if we are all better served by upending them.