Law firm cutting my billed hours and "bonus" -- legal???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who come from biglaw have this issue a lot. Your definition of “billable” is different than theirs.

Really? I've worked for two biglaw firms and never heard of an issue like OP's. Our hours-based bonuses were always based on the amount the associate billed (excluding firm hours and with special rules for pro bono (one firm capped the number that counted)), not the amount that actually ended up on the invoice.

Read again. People who COME FROM biglaw run into this a lot because, as you say, it’s not how billable hours are counted in biglaw, but the biglaw way is not how it’s counted outside of biglaw necessarily.

I kept in touch with lots of friends from law school and this hit me right away. People at non biglaw firms complained constantly about having their hours cut, while in biglaw we never worried about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

This. He sounds like an a-hole with the unclear explanations and bait-and-switch. Let him figure it out, don’t do him any favors unless you need a reference.

[Anonymous]

lol. this is why my firm gave bonuses based on revenue and not hours.

[Anonymous]

I would have a conversation with him about the client expectations. I don’t know what patent lawyers do, but if a client is expecting that a motion can be done in 60 hours, and you bill 100 for it, the billing partner might feel he can’t bill more than 70. It may be that you are overworking things because bioglaw co-signs have a high tolerance for that, but clients at other types of firms want you to do a B+ job in 60 hours rather than an A+ job in 100 hours.

[Anonymous]

Yeah, if I were you I’d just cut my losses and move on.

Candidly, that comp framework sounds like a boiler room, chop-shop operation. I’m partner at a V20 and get these stupid ass pitches all the time to lateral… low overhead, keep some gargantuan amount of your book, fully WFH, whatever else. These are not reputable firms. Doesn’t surprise me the “partner” is writing off a big chunk of your time, what does he care? The structure is set up so he can leverage you and get a bunch of free work, the work then reflects outsized quality for what it costs the client, client and partner are happy and there you are with you D in your hand.

I’m sure you have no recourse. Very likely the only thing this firm spent money on is an ironclad employment contract designed to screw you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I started working for a new firm.

They have an unusual pay structure.

The pay is $10k per month. Then an additional $10k if you make your 150 hours in the month. Then an additional $300/hour for every hour above 150 hours.

The hours are "billable hours" which the firm defines as hours that can be billed.

After my first month, my boss cut 20 hours and told me that they "can't" be billed. I'm a very senior level attorney and only went to this firm for the salary.

As a result, I lost $6000.

If I hadn't worked so many hours overtime, I would have lost my $10k "bonus".

My boss says that it's a "bonus," not salary, and cannot be expected so it's not illegal not to pay it.

I am a patent litigator so I'm not an employment law expert but I consulted with an employment law expert and they agreed with my boss. They said that it's under "contract law" and since the definition of "billable hours" is disputed, my boss could be right and a lawsuit could just be a waste of time and money.

Obviously I'm now looking for a new job *****after only a month and please don't tell me how bad this looks****** but I don't even know my rights.

Meanwhile can someone just tell me how common this is??? I've never heard of "billable hours" being hours the FIRM bills.

OP: You understand your current firm's practices regarding billing. Your only question is "how common is this" billing structure. Law firms are businesses free to create their own compensation structures. An "employment law expert" that you consulted agrees with your boss.

I am going to be blunt: Even though you are a "very senior level attorney", you lack commonsense regarding compensation matters.

[Anonymous]

It seems like the firm made a bad hire.

[Anonymous]

I think if the firm is billing that time but not giving you credit for it, then you have a point. If it's not being billed (or a client is not refusing to pay for it) then you have less to gripe about.

Ask for a "budget" for how much time you can bill on a project and stick to it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

The relationship partner shouldn't be handing off responsibility for managing a client's bills. That's a very weird demand.

Meh, I handled the bills as an associate, its not uncommon. But I guess since the clients may be used to huge write downs, it could be untenable here. My point was that it's the only circumstance under which OP should stay the summer to help them out. Otherwise, get out ASAP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think if the firm is billing that time but not giving you credit for it, then you have a point. If it's not being billed (or a client is not refusing to pay for it) then you have less to gripe about.

Ask for a "budget" for how much time you can bill on a project and stick to it.

Reasonable advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

The relationship partner shouldn't be handing off responsibility for managing a client's bills. That's a very weird demand.

Meh, I handled the bills as an associate, its not uncommon. But I guess since the clients may be used to huge write downs, it could be untenable here. My point was that it's the only circumstance under which OP should stay the summer to help them out. Otherwise, get out ASAP.

OP is an experienced patent litigator whose employer wants them to either work big law hours for 240k (it seems like getting deep into the 300/hr tier isn't happening) or 120k with a more reasonable schedule. OP needs to bail asap

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

The relationship partner shouldn't be handing off responsibility for managing a client's bills. That's a very weird demand.

Meh, I handled the bills as an associate, its not uncommon. But I guess since the clients may be used to huge write downs, it could be untenable here. My point was that it's the only circumstance under which OP should stay the summer to help them out. Otherwise, get out ASAP.

OP is an experienced patent litigator whose employer wants them to either work big law hours for 240k (it seems like getting deep into the 300/hr tier isn't happening) or 120k with a more reasonable schedule. OP needs to bail asap

Maybe.

OP needs to get accustomed to the new firm's practices regarding billing and compensation before making a decision as to whether he/she should stay or leave. Most likely, there will be some variations regarding billing practices among partners as well as by client.

OP was aware that the new position had a compensation scheme which differed from traditional biglaw firm compensation structures.

Understandings and expectations change and evolve with experience. Most recent law school grads who become biglaw associates enter biglaw with the goal of becoming an equity partner. With experience, reality sinks in and goals get modified to align with reality. OP is in an adjustment period with a new firm which operates under a different compensation structure than his prior firm. If OP cannot adjust to function within the new reality, then maybe OP should move to a different firm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

This. He sounds like an a-hole with the unclear explanations and bait-and-switch. Let him figure it out, don’t do him any favors unless you need a reference.

I am in complete agreement. Don't stay for two months just so he can take a vacation. 2 months in the Amazon? GTFO. I think if you leave quickly you don't even need to worry about a reference. This is a very simple case of not a good fit. Perfectly understandable since you were making a transition out of big law.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I would NOT tell them you will stay through the summer. I wouldn't say anything at all. Just look for a new job - and then take it, when you find it. Your boss being unreachable is NOT your problem. They will clearly hang you out to dry, and you do not owe them staying there through a two month Amazonian vacation!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who come from biglaw have this issue a lot. Your definition of “billable” is different than theirs.

Really? I've worked for two biglaw firms and never heard of an issue like OP's. Our hours-based bonuses were always based on the amount the associate billed (excluding firm hours and with special rules for pro bono (one firm capped the number that counted)), not the amount that actually ended up on the invoice.

Read again. People who COME FROM biglaw run into this a lot because, as you say, it’s not how billable hours are counted in biglaw, but the biglaw way is not how it’s counted outside of biglaw necessarily.

I kept in touch with lots of friends from law school and this hit me right away. People at non biglaw firms complained constantly about having their hours cut, while in biglaw we never worried about it.

No - this happened to me in BigLaw too. It's part of the reason I left.