What is the point of enrichment?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks everyone for the serious replies. I'm not trying to argue for or against enrichment, just truly trying to understand. I have a kid who will be entering K next year so I have very little knowledge or experience with schools today, nor do I feel like I could even judge what a good curriculum would look like. My kid loves numbers so I guess that's why my original question sounded like it was more geared towards math enrichment, but I think I generally refer to academic enrichment. Non-academic enrichment seems clearly worthwhile to me. Certain things like instruments or dance or foreign language you have to learn when you are young or you'll never have the same proficiency. Even with sports, you will likely never have that chance again to play on teams with your age cohort. And the skills you pick up from those extracurricular activities can greatly enrich your life as an adult. Despite what some have said, I don't believe the goal of schools is to teach these extracurriculars. You may have PE but it's to exercise your body, not to provide proficiency in a sport. You may have band but it's to expose you to the possibilities and see if there is an interest there. None of these offerings are central to the mission of a school. But math and reading, those should be the bread and butter of the schools.

It sounds like people are saying schools today are just not teaching the basic subjects adequately. What are you comparing today to? Do you have in your mind a standard of teaching or some timeline of when kids should be learning certain math concepts for example? Are there specific examples of how the schools are falling short? As I mentioned, I am a product of public schools and MCPS specifically. I have no idea if the curriculum back then was good or bad and I doubt my parents gave it a second's thought. I always thought I had a good education (went to a "W" school), but looking back, I now realize there were some gaping holes. I don't think math concepts were explained in depth for example, because I met classmates in college who had a much firmer grasp on fundamental concepts. And I distinctly remember not knowing what nouns and verbs were until I started taking a foreign language in 7th grade (not because I was a bad student but it was never taught). I also remember only learning about how to write simple essays (a thesis and 3 supporting paragraphs with a topic sentence each) until 9th grade. Is all that normal or would my W school have gotten a failing grade from you all?

But despite all those failings, I turned out fine. I still learned the math that I needed to go to a great college and I caught up on the more fundamental concepts in college because it was easier for my adult brain to grasp anyways (and while I did well in math in HS, I LOVED math in college like multivariable calc and linear algebra, so the lack of good foundation did not turn me off math). And by college I was a good writer and went on to a top 3 law school. I'm not bragging and I know my education could have been better and I could be better today than I am but the point is I turned out acceptable. At the end of the day, does it matter if a kid learns algebra in 6th grade vs 9th grade? (I have no idea when kids today learn algebra so please don't correct me, I am totally making up grades here). As adults, we use maybe up to basic algebra in our daily lives? And there are plenty of horrible writes in the legal field...

Again, I am not trying to challenge anyone's enrichment choices. We all have limited time and I am trying to decide, in the future, if it would be more worthwhile to spend time enriching non-academic areas or academic areas. My personal experience is telling me non-academic enrichment but I don't want to screw up my kid's chance at a good future because I am not getting with the changing times.

We are in MCPS. The people we know who send their kids to MCPS and themselves went to MCPS says that it used to be much stronger. I don't know because I have nothing to compare it to, but I will say that one frustration, made worse by the pandemic, is that they teach to kids who are below grade level, and kids who are at or above grade level are getting very little attention. Magnets are now done by lottery among qualified kids. I know quite a few people who can afford private and have switched. For us, we would have to make huge sacrifices to send out kid to private, so instead we do outside work -- an RSM course for math and an AoPS course for ELA. So far it has worked well for us, but only because we really don't have to rely on the school to challenge our kid.

[Anonymous]

For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: Do what feels right to you. I did not think I would be sending my child to a math program in ES. I figured he might benefit from some CTY type programs when he was in high school, my older brothers participated in similar programs and loved them, but I wasn’t counting on ES. He is not a complainer so we really didn’t hear much from him about school being easy. Then came distance learning and we heard what math class was like. We know he loves math, he enjoyed logic puzzles and creating math problems, so we asked about a separate math class and he said yes. Now he does a math competition class and a regular math class. His choice.

He also plays a rec sport each season, participates in Scouts, and has tried things like Ninja Warrior class and fencing. We go to some museums and do a lot of hiking and camping. I would say he is pretty well rounded. It isn’t all math all the time but he does extra math because he likes it.

We have friends who use programs like Kumon or Mathnasium because their kids are struggling a bit or are pretty regularly getting 3’s in math and the parents are worried about the kids not really absorbing the foundational skills. I don’t know anyone who is accelerating for accelerations sake. I know one parent whose kid is not enamored with math who is at RSM but most the people I know there have kids who want to be there.

But do what feels right to you. There is no right answer, each kid is different and each parents comfort level is different. If DS told us he didn’t want to do RSM next year we wouldn’t sign him up. He has dropped other activities because he lost interest and that is fine. He is supposed to be exploring different things now.

Thanks. My child isn't a complainer either so I can see this happening. I wonder how much remote learning has spurred "enrichment" once parents saw what the curriculum was like. I also wonder as we go back to normal, if parents will be clueless again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

RSM is a 2 hour class plus homework. It takes DS about 30 minutes to complete his homework. He participates in a STEM Club that meets every other week for 90 minutes. They rotate through different subjects. It is fun with a little bit of lecture but mainly project based learning and not all that academic.

As I said, my son does Scouts and a rec sport as well has RSM. He spends more time with soccer then he does with math (5 hours or so) and almost as much time with Scouts (2 hours a week, more one camping weekends) as he does on RSM.

And you don’t have to do anything. He asks to do the math so we send him to math. The vast majority of kids at RSM and similar programs would be fine if they did just the math at school. Some might end up a year ahead of where they were but most are probably on the same pace they would be without the program. I appreciate that it is providing a challenge for my son and that he enjoys it. Most of his classmates are not taking RSM or AoPS and are doing fine in the same math class that DS is in. I like that think that he is strengthening his foundation and will benefit from the class but I would guess that he will end up in Calculus with current classmates who never went to RSM. I don’t think it is a make or break thing. It makes DS happy and it challenges him so it is worth it to me. Would he be fine without it, probably.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

Then don't. Nothing is required of you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

NP you have hit the nail on the head for why we send our above-average-but-not-gifted children to private school. I like keeping afternoons and weekends for physical and outdoorsy activities, or for meetups with family and friends. Can’t imagine condemning them to a Saturday morning math class! (If they were super into math it would be different, but they like academics a normal amount)

[Anonymous]

OP’s summary in 2nd paragraph sounds close to our view. Colleagues with large families in W HS areas of MCPS (and similar areas of FCPS and APS) report that they saw consistent declines in math/reading/writing content (and also declines expectations) from their oldest child down to the youngest during the past 15 years or so. They saw a big shift of focus over time, towards propping up the lowest performing kids, and increasingly ignoring the kids who did barely OK or better.

They all eventually gave up on local public schools and all moved their remaining kids to private (including religious) schools. They found that the private schools they chose had better teaching on average, more content taught each school year, and higher expectations of the students. Private schools can vary widely. Admissions also is hyper-competitive, partly because more and more parents are losing confidence in local public schools to teach the really essential things well.

Its really tragic that the public schools seem to have lost focus on teaching really essential things like reading, writing, addition, s7btraction, multiplication, and division. We see that many after-school tutoring places - like Kumon, Mathnasium, RSM, AoPS - are expanding and thriving to fill all the gaps. Economically disadvantaged kids will suffer the most, because they can’t get that after school help with fundamentals. Sigh.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Without enrichment I think most kids would be behind.

This is like asking why kids need to play sports outside of school. I mean after all, don't they have soccer in PE class?

Interesting take. Why do they "need" to play sports?

+1, ours did PE in school and rode her bike but was much more interested in music and drawing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

NP you have hit the nail on the head for why we send our above-average-but-not-gifted children to private school. I like keeping afternoons and weekends for physical and outdoorsy activities, or for meetups with family and friends. Can’t imagine condemning them to a Saturday morning math class! (If they were super into math it would be different, but they like academics a normal amount)

My kids went through public and we do zero academic enrichment and they are still "advanced." Their only formal enrichment is art and music lessons and our weekends are about fun. I think some kids who do math are because parents are type A and they want their kids to have a competitive edge or because the kids are super into math. There are some public and private schools where math instruction is weak and so parents might feel obligated to backfill it, but a basic good public or private is good enough instruction for most average and above average kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

NP you have hit the nail on the head for why we send our above-average-but-not-gifted children to private school. I like keeping afternoons and weekends for physical and outdoorsy activities, or for meetups with family and friends. Can’t imagine condemning them to a Saturday morning math class! (If they were super into math it would be different, but they like academics a normal amount)

My kids went through public and we do zero academic enrichment and they are still "advanced." Their only formal enrichment is art and music lessons and our weekends are about fun. I think some kids who do math are because parents are type A and they want their kids to have a competitive edge or because the kids are super into math. There are some public and private schools where math instruction is weak and so parents might feel obligated to backfill it, but a basic good public or private is good enough instruction for most average and above average kids.

You'd be surprised how behind some districts are in things not named Math. Some schools dont even do decent novels... at all.

And while math enrichment can come to mean acceleration, it doesnt have to be. There are so many great resources out there that are enriching from a "Math" perspective that dont necessarily translate to advanced school curriculum. Games that promote systems and algorithmic thinking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

NP you have hit the nail on the head for why we send our above-average-but-not-gifted children to private school. I like keeping afternoons and weekends for physical and outdoorsy activities, or for meetups with family and friends. Can’t imagine condemning them to a Saturday morning math class! (If they were super into math it would be different, but they like academics a normal amount)

My kids went through public and we do zero academic enrichment and they are still "advanced." Their only formal enrichment is art and music lessons and our weekends are about fun. I think some kids who do math are because parents are type A and they want their kids to have a competitive edge or because the kids are super into math. There are some public and private schools where math instruction is weak and so parents might feel obligated to backfill it, but a basic good public or private is good enough instruction for most average and above average kids.

In MCPS, everyone is supposedly “advanced.” All MSers tske “advanced” English. 9th and 10th graders all take “honors” English. That doesn’t make the classes advanced/honors level, and it certainly doesn’t mean that the kids taking those classes are advanced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those to do academic enrichment because of the lack of public school rigor, how many hours a week do your children spend on it? I’m interested in providing my kids a well balanced education: academics, arts and athletics and some free time as well in their day.

I don’t want them to have to sacrifice everything else in my children’s childhoods for the sake of academic supplementation, just because public school isn’t providing the education that it should.

NP you have hit the nail on the head for why we send our above-average-but-not-gifted children to private school. I like keeping afternoons and weekends for physical and outdoorsy activities, or for meetups with family and friends. Can’t imagine condemning them to a Saturday morning math class! (If they were super into math it would be different, but they like academics a normal amount)

My kids went through public and we do zero academic enrichment and they are still "advanced." Their only formal enrichment is art and music lessons and our weekends are about fun. I think some kids who do math are because parents are type A and they want their kids to have a competitive edge or because the kids are super into math. There are some public and private schools where math instruction is weak and so parents might feel obligated to backfill it, but a basic good public or private is good enough instruction for most average and above average kids.

You'd be surprised how behind some districts are in things not named Math. Some schools dont even do decent novels... at all.

And while math enrichment can come to mean acceleration, it doesnt have to be. There are so many great resources out there that are enriching from a "Math" perspective that dont necessarily translate to advanced school curriculum. Games that promote systems and algorithmic thinking.

Agree. The writing that comes out of most public schools is atrocious. Both the handwriting itself, and the content.

[Anonymous]

I work with very international crown and only Americans are the ones who cannot do simple math.Who wrote here that 'they are going to learn the math eventually'. When? They are grownups already.
I'm still trying to figure out what they did at school for 12+years. They are really good at following rules though or we wouldn't hire any of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We are in mcps. My first grader knows some algebra because he loves math. He learned his multiplication math facts online by watching some silly videos, and he learned the concept of elimination to solve equation after one person pointed it out to him at a math tutor booth at a fair. He was there for an hour at RSM booth doing all questions and I had to pull him away by force. I try to avoid to give him any math enrichment at home, but he natually wants to do math. I am still debating if I should let him to do RSM or AOPS (once he goes to 2nd grade) in person. I don't like kumon. He can't do online because he has adhd. I have tried to convert his love of math to other things like chess and stem, so he is now in 2 chess clubs and 1 stem club. His brain needs to be stimulated, but he still loves math the most. He does math for fun, so he does not want to join math summer camp. To him, summer camp is all about water play and playground.

Anyone tell me how do I know if RSM or AOPS is better fit for my child ? There is also mathnasium that is off the street. Mathnasium is 2 min away from my home, AOPS is 8 min away from my home and RSM is like at least 30 min away from my home. Which one is the best for price and for fun?

AoPS would be better if you can afford it. You're very lucky to have a center so near - I think they have 12 in the entire US; I know people who commute over an hour there. You could also get Beast Academy books: https://beastacademy.com/resources/placementtests

[Anonymous]

The point of enrichment for us is to the teach the skills that our public school should be teaching but isn't.