Have you ever used the name "Goy" or "Goyim" to describe a person who is a Gentile?

[Anonymous]

I am not Jewish, but my hackles do sometimes get raised by phrases like,"he doesn't look Jewish," or "which one are you talking about, the Jewish one?" I am sure it is harmless, but one of my best friends growing up was the daughter of a Holocaust survivor who hid in an attic as a child. I may be overreacting, but something rubs me the wrong way about phrases that sound like people are trying to identify who the Jews are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, referring to someone as being NOT Jewish is a bigger insult the calling someone goy or goyim. Jews don't do as much recruiting as other religions do so we kind of feel, well, if you aren't Jewish, it's really not your fault. Some people are chosen to be doctors and lawyers, some people are chosen to live in trailers and have misspelled tatoos. It is what it is.

Your point being that Jews are "chosen" to be doctors and lawyers, and goyim are "chosen" to live in trailers and have misspelled tatoos (sic)?

WTH?

[Anonymous]

I'm a non-observant Jew and I never use the word with my other Jewish friends who are similarly non-practicing. However when I am around my family and extended family who tend to be more practicing conservative Jews, I hear it occasionally and usually in a humorous way. When I'm around some orthodox friends, they use the term more often and without thought and without prejudice. It's just more a part of their vocabulary. Plus they have not assimilated in the same way and there are the Jews and the Goyim.

BTW, for those discussing Jews as an ethnic group, we are not an ethnic group, we are a religious group. You are probably more likely referring to Ashkinazi's or Eastern European Jews. You cannot become Ashkinazi, but you can become a Jew.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, referring to someone as being NOT Jewish is a bigger insult the calling someone goy or goyim. Jews don't do as much recruiting as other religions do so we kind of feel, well, if you aren't Jewish, it's really not your fault. Some people are chosen to be doctors and lawyers, some people are chosen to live in trailers and have misspelled tatoos. It is what it is.

Your point being that Jews are "chosen" to be doctors and lawyers, and goyim are "chosen" to live in trailers and have misspelled tatoos (sic)?

WTH?

That's another problem with the goyim-they have no sense of humor.

[Anonymous]

If it is meant to be derogatory, then it is wrong. Period. The fact that you are jewish and your family survived the holocaust doesn't change that.

[Anonymous]

Oy. Such a bilious posting, OP. You want I should be itching for a fight when I come home so late and I just want to relax? Listen, here's how it is by us. You don't bother us, and we don't bother you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Frankly, referring to someone as being NOT Jewish is a bigger insult the calling someone goy or goyim. Jews don't do as much recruiting as other religions do so we kind of feel, well, if you aren't Jewish, it's really not your fault. Some people are chosen to be doctors and lawyers, some people are chosen to live in trailers and have misspelled tatoos. It is what it is.

This is exactly right. The word "goy" or "goyim" is not in and of itself insulting--it just means a non-Jew. The underlying principle is essentially that non-Jews just tend to do things a bit differently. So you might say that goyim don't celebrate Chanukah, which is just a fact and not offensive in any way. You could also say that non-Jews are more likely to live in trailers and have misspelled tattoos, which could be taken as offensive even though you didn't use the word goy. It's not like the "n word" for African-Americans, which is disgusting in any context. I also do think there is a huge difference between using a slang label for a specific minority group (e.g. the n word) and the members of a fairly small minority group having a slang label for the general public who are not members of that group (e.g. goy).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oy. Such a bilious posting, OP. You want I should be itching for a fight when I come home so late and I just want to relax? Listen, here's how it is by us. You don't bother us, and we don't bother you.

What . . . you think you speak for several million people? I don't think so, speak for yourself - you two bit thug!!!!

[Anonymous]

Jew here-did we just get called a 'thug'? Awesome!!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We definitely use this word in my family. While we don't mean anything negative or hurtful, it does correspond to certain stereotypes or at least examples of things that are not commonly done among the Jewish people we know. It's so hard to explain. My mom would say that Jewish boys don't play football buy goyim do. She would consider certain foods to be goyish (unrelated to kosher restrictions), such as deviled eggs and crockpot meals. It's goyish for a bride to throw her bouquet. Goyim are more likely to dress their children alike or have fake plants in their homes. Stuff like that. Not necessarily bad, but just different. Maybe with a tiny hint of superiority thrown in if I do admit it, but as the child of holocaust survivors I'm not going to hold it against my mom.

A similar word is shiksa. It refers to any non-Jewish girl but if you say the word I automatically picture a tall blonde with a sweater set and pearls. There are lots of wonderful women who are tall and blonde and wear sweater sets and pearls, but the majority of them are not Jewish.

When I was 16 years old and in highschool I was dating a boy who was Jewish. It was a normal high school relationships, nothing really serious or intense just fun and happy. He took me to his home one afternoon in the summer to grabsome lunch. He introduced to his mom when we walked in. His mother took one look at me, turned around and ordered him to follow her. I heard her screaming at him to, "get that Shiksa out of my house." He came back, apologized to me that his mom was rude (she never acknowledged me) and we left. I was in shock and did not know what it meant but kind of assumed the word was Yiddish or German because of how is sounded.

My best friend from childhood lived down the street from me and I was very close to her family. Her Dad was Jewish and had grown up in NYC. I really loved and trusted him (and still do) so I went over to their house that night, told her Dad what happened and asked him what it meant. Even today I remember how sad it seemed to make him. He told me that it really just means a blue-eyed blonde (which I am and tall by the way!) but the way that "Mrs. X" had used was an insult, in a way that to some jews meant a gentile slut. He explained about "Jewishness" is traditionally viewed as descending from the mother and how some Jewish women use that to reject non-jewish girls their sons date, even when the sons are still way too young to be in a serious relationship. He called it a predjudice. Afetrward he hugged me and made a joke about how being tall and blonde had to have some draw back. Eventually we laughed about it but it taught me that lots of words can have different meanings depending on how they are used, words in all languages and from all cultures, and sometimes an innoucuos word can be turned mean and ugly just by the intent of the user. Its a lesson I have never forgotten.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We definitely use this word in my family. While we don't mean anything negative or hurtful, it does correspond to certain stereotypes or at least examples of things that are not commonly done among the Jewish people we know. It's so hard to explain. My mom would say that Jewish boys don't play football buy goyim do. She would consider certain foods to be goyish (unrelated to kosher restrictions), such as deviled eggs and crockpot meals. It's goyish for a bride to throw her bouquet. Goyim are more likely to dress their children alike or have fake plants in their homes. Stuff like that. Not necessarily bad, but just different. Maybe with a tiny hint of superiority thrown in if I do admit it, but as the child of holocaust survivors I'm not going to hold it against my mom.

A similar word is shiksa. It refers to any non-Jewish girl but if you say the word I automatically picture a tall blonde with a sweater set and pearls. There are lots of wonderful women who are tall and blonde and wear sweater sets and pearls, but the majority of them are not Jewish.

When I was 16 years old and in highschool I was dating a boy who was Jewish. It was a normal high school relationships, nothing really serious or intense just fun and happy. He took me to his home one afternoon in the summer to grabsome lunch. He introduced to his mom when we walked in. His mother took one look at me, turned around and ordered him to follow her. I heard her screaming at him to, "get that Shiksa out of my house." He came back, apologized to me that his mom was rude (she never acknowledged me) and we left. I was in shock and did not know what it meant but kind of assumed the word was Yiddish or German because of how is sounded.

My best friend from childhood lived down the street from me and I was very close to her family. Her Dad was Jewish and had grown up in NYC. I really loved and trusted him (and still do) so I went over to their house that night, told her Dad what happened and asked him what it meant. Even today I remember how sad it seemed to make him. He told me that it really just means a blue-eyed blonde (which I am and tall by the way!) but the way that "Mrs. X" had used was an insult, in a way that to some jews meant a gentile slut. He explained about "Jewishness" is traditionally viewed as descending from the mother and how some Jewish women use that to reject non-jewish girls their sons date, even when the sons are still way too young to be in a serious relationship. He called it a predjudice. Afetrward he hugged me and made a joke about how being tall and blonde had to have some draw back. Eventually we laughed about it but it taught me that lots of words can have different meanings depending on how they are used, words in all languages and from all cultures, and sometimes an innoucuos word can be turned mean and ugly just by the intent of the user. Its a lesson I have never forgotten.

Very powerful and balanced story. You explain the hurtfulness of the original incident, but then the irony of the story is that the person who gave you the most comfort was a person from the same culture. He sounds like he was a very kind, gentle and caring man. I wish we all had such dear friends. You are very fortunate to have had such caring friends in your life. I truly hope that this gentle and slightly humorous man still survives. People with such wisdom make our world a better place to live.

Also, you did a good job of not vilifying the women either. You tried to explain what her rationale might have been.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Jew here-did we just get called a 'thug'? Awesome!!!!!

It seems we did. Such charm we can learn from these gentlewomen...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Goy and Goyim aren't generally used in a nasty way, although they are sometimes used that way and I would say some people don't use it around Non-Jews. I would agree with the poster that said that it's not necessarily used to put people down, but it is probably used to exclude more often.....naming Non-Jews as a group something different than Jews. It really depends on who you're talking to and what these words mean to them, as you can tell from the posts.

Also "Goysha" is used to describe something that's not "Jewish." I think most people use it for things that they wouldn't expect Jews to do, but these are usually things that are more "American." Like, Wonder Bread may be called "Goysha" but it's not that Jews won't eat it or something. Or, I've heard that Colonial looking furniture, which many Jews have in their homes, may be called "Goysha." Shiksa and Shaigitz (the male version of Shiksa) are never meant in a nasty way, as far as I can tell. Although for the PP it must be used that way among their friends, that surprises me because I don't hear it that way. I would say that in my world Goy is more obnoxious to use than Shiksa.

My Mother's first language is Yiddish, so I may have a different perspective, but I grew up in a very Jewish area and I think that some of these terms get tossed around Jewish communities without much thought and people do use them both in a derogatory way and without meaning anything negative. You can generally tell by tone if they're being nasty. For example, the term "JAP" (Jewish American Princess) is derogatory, but everyone uses it and I'm not offended when a Non-Jew uses it unless I believe they have a nasty intent.....and I don't think they normally do.

Shvartzah is derogatory, even though I don't think the actual "meaning" is any more than "black person" and some older Jews will use it in a non-derogatory way. I don't ever use it and I find it very offensive.

I really like how you discuss how context and intent can speak volumes about a word's meaning. I am not Jewish, but my husband is. I was with his extended family some months back and an in-law of one of the relatives who was there used goyim in a derogatory tone. Everyone inhaled and looked at me because it was clear that he meant it as a a slur. Frankly, he had forgotten that someone who was not Jewish was in the room. I commented that he did not have enough information to know if his assumption was correct or not. Later on, when one of my husband's relatives delicately prodded to see if I was offended, I thanked them for their concern, but chuckled that it was all fairly mild. I've always been grateful that my in-laws have embraced me and are unwavering in their support of me and our family. I will say, however, if he had said shvartzah in the same tone, I would have been offended and would have said so.

[Anonymous]

In my mind, goy and goyishe mean non-Jewish. I might hear "goyishe" used to describe something like a bacon sandwich with mayo, but that's about it. Are there cases where people have used the terms more hurtfully? Yeah, probably, but that doesn't mean that it's the majority usage or that it should provoke sweeping generalizations.

OP is doing a bogus, nasty framing job, giving the choices "hateful contempt" or "gossipy insult." Don't fall for her vicious bs.

[Anonymous]

My Jewish Polish grandmother used the word Goyim only in reference to non-Jews in Poland, before she left that place. It was a neutral word that could become positive or negative depending on the context. This Goy was a good farmer, this Goy tried to cheat, this Goy helped her when she got lost, etc. Its a word that made more sense in the context of Jewish life in eastern Europe when the Jews were segregated.