How important are ECs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Similar problem here. My introverted son is academically-minded but suffers from inattentive ADHD and very low processing speed (he has an IEP at school), so he spends all his time getting good grades in AP classes, and doesn't want to do anything outside of school.

We are foreigners and anywhere else in the world, colleges would only look at academics. But here, it works against him. I've never understood why US colleges have such murky and patently subjective ways to cherry-pick students, when all other universities want academically-strong students and understand that other activities are much harder to rank.

Because university is more than just classes and grades. They have programs in the arts, music, sciences, school clubs, theater programs etc. and they want applicants who are passionate about those areas IN ADDITION to being outstanding students. If all of the students are just study grinds with nothing else in their lives, they aren't leading a fulfilling path.

PP you responded to. I dispute the importance of those things as hobbies. I know colleges increase tuition by offering state of the art athletic and artistic facilities, but in the end, those are not the most important things students learn at uni. I think there's a fundamental difference of opinion between what Americans view as the goal of a university education, and what the rest of the world thinks. For most people on this earth, university is exclusively an academic institution - music, theater, and other arts are included in those, of course, but as professional degrees, not hobbies.

A compelling reason not to factor in extra-curricular activities in admission is a question of equity. Only middle class families can afford to shuttle their kids to interesting after-school hobbies. Working-class families do not have the same opportunities. Therefore it's not fair for admissions officers to add weight to unusual, impressive activities outside of school.

All in all, I am not in favor of the lack of transparency of US university admissions. Everything is constructed to work in favor of the universities, not the students, whereas around the world, the goal is to educate students who are academically qualified to walk in the door, whoever they are. Here in the US, because of the subjective nature of admissions, there is a significant potential for racial and other types of discrimination. My kids are looking at Canadian and British unis in addition to US ones, and we'll see where they end up.

+ 1. Be prepared to for some bashing by US-native snobs! I agree 100% that the purpose of a college should be education. period. They use sports and social life to attract students. They justify charging higher fees by providing expanded athletic facilities, etc. that the majority of the kids don't use. A big scam.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They shouldn't mean crap! It's way too easy to fake involvement in an EC. When I was in high school, my buddies and I joined the physics club every year. We'd show up for the first meeting where they took the yearbook picture. After that, we never did a damn thing! I suggest your kid do something similar if he doesn't have legitimate ECs. He could even list himself as the damn president of the club since we all know how erect admissions reps get over "leadership qualities " It's not like anyone is calling your kid's high school and verifying this crap!

Fake non-profits are another way to go if mom & dad , or college consultant, set the direction. Family member set up something that comes up immediately in a google search of their name. It's 100% bogus and totally a dead entity since college acceptance. But dang, it sure does sound like they a quite an impressive candidate.

I'm not trolling a damn thing! If schools are going to make their admissions criteria subjective and arbitrary then you're damn right I'm going to game the system and encourage my kid to do the same! It's a dog eat dog process and you know damn well other kids are fluffing their apps. You think I want those kids to take all the good spots and mine end up at a crappier school but with his "integrity" intact? Hell no! It's like Lance Armstrong back in the day. People give him crap for juicing, but so was every other top cyclist at the time, and he was still the best! You play to win the game!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They shouldn't mean crap! It's way too easy to fake involvement in an EC. When I was in high school, my buddies and I joined the physics club every year. We'd show up for the first meeting where they took the yearbook picture. After that, we never did a damn thing! I suggest your kid do something similar if he doesn't have legitimate ECs. He could even list himself as the damn president of the club since we all know how erect admissions reps get over "leadership qualities " It's not like anyone is calling your kid's high school and verifying this crap!

Fake non-profits are another way to go if mom & dad , or college consultant, set the direction. Family member set up something that comes up immediately in a google search of their name. It's 100% bogus and totally a dead entity since college acceptance. But dang, it sure does sound like they a quite an impressive candidate.

OP, I'm pretty sure these two are trolling you b/c I find it hard to believe anyone is this willing to share how little integrity they have, even on an anonymous board. But in case you're considering heeding this 'advice'....just say no.

I'm not trolling a damn thing! If schools are going to make their admissions criteria subjective and arbitrary then you're damn right I'm going to game the system and encourage my kid to do the same! It's a dog eat dog process and you know damn well other kids are fluffing their apps. You think I want those kids to take all the good spots and mine end up at a crappier school but with his "integrity" intact? Hell no! It's like Lance Armstrong back in the day. People give him crap for juicing, but so was every other top cyclist at the time, and he was still the best! You play to win the game!

(Sorry I posted this twice this phone SUCKS!)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Similar problem here. My introverted son is academically-minded but suffers from inattentive ADHD and very low processing speed (he has an IEP at school), so he spends all his time getting good grades in AP classes, and doesn't want to do anything outside of school.

We are foreigners and anywhere else in the world, colleges would only look at academics. But here, it works against him. I've never understood why US colleges have such murky and patently subjective ways to cherry-pick students, when all other universities want academically-strong students and understand that other activities are much harder to rank.

Because university is more than just classes and grades. They have programs in the arts, music, sciences, school clubs, theater programs etc. and they want applicants who are passionate about those areas IN ADDITION to being outstanding students. If all of the students are just study grinds with nothing else in their lives, they aren't leading a fulfilling path.

PP you responded to. I dispute the importance of those things as hobbies. I know colleges increase tuition by offering state of the art athletic and artistic facilities, but in the end, those are not the most important things students learn at uni. I think there's a fundamental difference of opinion between what Americans view as the goal of a university education, and what the rest of the world thinks. For most people on this earth, university is exclusively an academic institution - music, theater, and other arts are included in those, of course, but as professional degrees, not hobbies.

A compelling reason not to factor in extra-curricular activities in admission is a question of equity. Only middle class families can afford to shuttle their kids to interesting after-school hobbies. Working-class families do not have the same opportunities. Therefore it's not fair for admissions officers to add weight to unusual, impressive activities outside of school.

All in all, I am not in favor of the lack of transparency of US university admissions. Everything is constructed to work in favor of the universities, not the students, whereas around the world, the goal is to educate students who are academically qualified to walk in the door, whoever they are. Here in the US, because of the subjective nature of admissions, there is a significant potential for racial and other types of discrimination. My kids are looking at Canadian and British unis in addition to US ones, and we'll see where they end up.

What makes your concern about the US system moot is that we have enough slots for all American applicants AND international applicants to get an excellent education. So if your kid doesn't get into some school you think should have taken them, they'll be admitted somewhere else that's just as capable of providing them an education that will lead them to a successful career. No harm will be done, and they'll get to enjoy watching strong sports teams, listening to wonderful orchestras, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They shouldn't mean crap! It's way too easy to fake involvement in an EC. When I was in high school, my buddies and I joined the physics club every year. We'd show up for the first meeting where they took the yearbook picture. After that, we never did a damn thing! I suggest your kid do something similar if he doesn't have legitimate ECs. He could even list himself as the damn president of the club since we all know how erect admissions reps get over "leadership qualities " It's not like anyone is calling your kid's high school and verifying this crap!

Fake non-profits are another way to go if mom & dad , or college consultant, set the direction. Family member set up something that comes up immediately in a google search of their name. It's 100% bogus and totally a dead entity since college acceptance. But dang, it sure does sound like they a quite an impressive candidate.

OP, I'm pretty sure these two are trolling you b/c I find it hard to believe anyone is this willing to share how little integrity they have, even on an anonymous board. But in case you're considering heeding this 'advice'....just say no.

I'm not trolling a damn thing! If schools are going to make their admissions criteria subjective and arbitrary then you're damn right I'm going to game the system and encourage my kid to do the same! It's a dog eat dog process and you know damn well other kids are fluffing their apps. You think I want those kids to take all the good spots and mine end up at a crappier school but with his "integrity" intact? Hell no! It's like Lance Armstrong back in the day. People give him crap for juicing, but so was every other top cyclist at the time, and he was still the best! You play to win the game!

(Sorry I posted this twice this phone SUCKS!)

Yeah, you're either a troll or you're going to regret your approach at some point.

[Anonymous]

I think they are important to show that your child has interests and also to demonstrate commitment to something. But in terms of what activity particularly or how many I don’t think it matters much. I do think demonstrating leadership (sports, clubs) and/or responsibility (caring for siblings, holding a job etc) are always beneficial but not everyone can be captain of a sports team or president of student body and schools know that. Just have your kid do something meaningful to them and don’t overthink.

[Anonymous]

There's still time to get a summer job and join a few clubs at school. It's true that some colleges like to see consistency and sustained commitment but depending on where your kid is aiming, it may not matter that much. Back in 2019, DD (33 ACT, 3.95UW) got into Pitt early using their specific application without even listing her ECs, which also consisted of a couple of sports, a couple of summer jobs, a few HS clubs, casual participation in Scouts, and independent study of languages. It was also enough for Case Western, UMinnesota, UC Davis, UW Madison, and LACs like Vassar, Oberlin, Grinnell, Reed, and Colby.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They shouldn't mean crap! It's way too easy to fake involvement in an EC. When I was in high school, my buddies and I joined the physics club every year. We'd show up for the first meeting where they took the yearbook picture. After that, we never did a damn thing! I suggest your kid do something similar if he doesn't have legitimate ECs. He could even list himself as the damn president of the club since we all know how erect admissions reps get over "leadership qualities " It's not like anyone is calling your kid's high school and verifying this crap!

+ 1. OP. Do this. I'm going to do this for a kid with similar profile. Join a few clubs. Show up to meetings once in a while, claim 2-3 hours week of activity in the common app for 2-3 years. Done!

This is lying. Just as fraudulent as Varsity Blues, but with lower stakes. It hurts every other kid who actually shows up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Similar problem here. My introverted son is academically-minded but suffers from inattentive ADHD and very low processing speed (he has an IEP at school), so he spends all his time getting good grades in AP classes, and doesn't want to do anything outside of school.

We are foreigners and anywhere else in the world, colleges would only look at academics. But here, it works against him. I've never understood why US colleges have such murky and patently subjective ways to cherry-pick students, when all other universities want academically-strong students and understand that other activities are much harder to rank.

Because university is more than just classes and grades. They have programs in the arts, music, sciences, school clubs, theater programs etc. and they want applicants who are passionate about those areas IN ADDITION to being outstanding students. If all of the students are just study grinds with nothing else in their lives, they aren't leading a fulfilling path.

PP you responded to. I dispute the importance of those things as hobbies. I know colleges increase tuition by offering state of the art athletic and artistic facilities, but in the end, those are not the most important things students learn at uni. I think there's a fundamental difference of opinion between what Americans view as the goal of a university education, and what the rest of the world thinks. For most people on this earth, university is exclusively an academic institution - music, theater, and other arts are included in those, of course, but as professional degrees, not hobbies.

A compelling reason not to factor in extra-curricular activities in admission is a question of equity. Only middle class families can afford to shuttle their kids to interesting after-school hobbies. Working-class families do not have the same opportunities. Therefore it's not fair for admissions officers to add weight to unusual, impressive activities outside of school.

All in all, I am not in favor of the lack of transparency of US university admissions. Everything is constructed to work in favor of the universities, not the students, whereas around the world, the goal is to educate students who are academically qualified to walk in the door, whoever they are. Here in the US, because of the subjective nature of admissions, there is a significant potential for racial and other types of discrimination. My kids are looking at Canadian and British unis in addition to US ones, and we'll see where they end up.

I think us and other university systems are apples and oranges. We had a european exchange student before covid and she explained the system in her country as being based largely on entrance exams. These decided the course of study and institution to a large degree. But the costs to go are a small fraction of what a us university would charge.

The university system was heavily supported with government funds. We have public universities but the most of the very top colleges in the usa are private and very very expensive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Similar problem here. My introverted son is academically-minded but suffers from inattentive ADHD and very low processing speed (he has an IEP at school), so he spends all his time getting good grades in AP classes, and doesn't want to do anything outside of school.

We are foreigners and anywhere else in the world, colleges would only look at academics. But here, it works against him. I've never understood why US colleges have such murky and patently subjective ways to cherry-pick students, when all other universities want academically-strong students and understand that other activities are much harder to rank.

Because university is more than just classes and grades. They have programs in the arts, music, sciences, school clubs, theater programs etc. and they want applicants who are passionate about those areas IN ADDITION to being outstanding students. If all of the students are just study grinds with nothing else in their lives, they aren't leading a fulfilling path.

PP you responded to. I dispute the importance of those things as hobbies. I know colleges increase tuition by offering state of the art athletic and artistic facilities, but in the end, those are not the most important things students learn at uni. I think there's a fundamental difference of opinion between what Americans view as the goal of a university education, and what the rest of the world thinks. For most people on this earth, university is exclusively an academic institution - music, theater, and other arts are included in those, of course, but as professional degrees, not hobbies.

A compelling reason not to factor in extra-curricular activities in admission is a question of equity. Only middle class families can afford to shuttle their kids to interesting after-school hobbies. Working-class families do not have the same opportunities. Therefore it's not fair for admissions officers to add weight to unusual, impressive activities outside of school.

All in all, I am not in favor of the lack of transparency of US university admissions. Everything is constructed to work in favor of the universities, not the students, whereas around the world, the goal is to educate students who are academically qualified to walk in the door, whoever they are. Here in the US, because of the subjective nature of admissions, there is a significant potential for racial and other types of discrimination. My kids are looking at Canadian and British unis in addition to US ones, and we'll see where they end up.

What makes your concern about the US system moot is that we have enough slots for all American applicants AND international applicants to get an excellent education. So if your kid doesn't get into some school you think should have taken them, they'll be admitted somewhere else that's just as capable of providing them an education that will lead them to a successful career. No harm will be done, and they'll get to enjoy watching strong sports teams, listening to wonderful orchestras, etc.

No, we don't. Not by my standards. We are not interested in a consolation price.

[Anonymous]

Try cal tech or maybe MIT or very top public schools. These will look more at straight academics and not other holistic factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They shouldn't mean crap! It's way too easy to fake involvement in an EC. When I was in high school, my buddies and I joined the physics club every year. We'd show up for the first meeting where they took the yearbook picture. After that, we never did a damn thing! I suggest your kid do something similar if he doesn't have legitimate ECs. He could even list himself as the damn president of the club since we all know how erect admissions reps get over "leadership qualities " It's not like anyone is calling your kid's high school and verifying this crap!

Fake non-profits are another way to go if mom & dad , or college consultant, set the direction. Family member set up something that comes up immediately in a google search of their name. It's 100% bogus and totally a dead entity since college acceptance. But dang, it sure does sound like they a quite an impressive candidate.

OP, I'm pretty sure these two are trolling you b/c I find it hard to believe anyone is this willing to share how little integrity they have, even on an anonymous board. But in case you're considering heeding this 'advice'....just say no.

I'm the fake NP poster & the situation is true. I didn't participate (it's disgusting ino), just passing the info along for all you little strivers on here.

[Anonymous]

Joining the physics club, real or fake is not going to help very much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They shouldn't mean crap! It's way too easy to fake involvement in an EC. When I was in high school, my buddies and I joined the physics club every year. We'd show up for the first meeting where they took the yearbook picture. After that, we never did a damn thing! I suggest your kid do something similar if he doesn't have legitimate ECs. He could even list himself as the damn president of the club since we all know how erect admissions reps get over "leadership qualities " It's not like anyone is calling your kid's high school and verifying this crap!

+ 1. OP. Do this. I'm going to do this for a kid with similar profile. Join a few clubs. Show up to meetings once in a while, claim 2-3 hours week of activity in the common app for 2-3 years. Done!

This is lying. Just as fraudulent as Varsity Blues, but with lower stakes. It hurts every other kid who actually shows up.

And how exactly were the Varsity Blues kids affected?

[Anonymous]

AOs are bored with non-profits now; that’s so 2010. And they want to see that your kid has a real interest in something, not just checking boxes.