Anonymous wrote:Has this organ theft conspiracy theory been indulged here for the last few hours while I was away? Seriously?
Humanity is doomed because too many of us are clearly just too bleeping stoooopid to survive.
Organ theft is a huge practice in Israel. It’s not a conspiracy I remember a bust in New Jersey a few years ago involving rabbis and organ trafficking.
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
Correct on graves, but we don't know where these other 80 people came from. If they were being held hostage, tested on, meticulously dismantled piece by piece. The IDF wont say where they got these people from, they wont say what happened - they could clear this little "organ theft" issue right up if theyd just literally say where they got these people and what happened.
If there is an organ theft issue, why return the bodies at all? Why not just burn them? Why not just hold them?
The IDF should be able to answer that, why wont they?
Because there is no need to respond outlandish lies and blood libel?
So where did they get these 80 people from??
How is it blood libel? The idf literally turned over 80 dead bodies. Some of them appear to be missing organs. The idf wont say where they are from or who they are. Or what they did to them.
Anonymous wrote:Again - NO ONE IS PRO-HAMAS. Stop using that strawman to shut down discussion.
If you're making demands of Israel that you don't make of Hamas, you are supporting Hamas.
Hamas isn't directly leeching off my tax dollars the way Israel is. If we're forced to prop up Israel financially, we have some say in how it spends our money and how it behaves.
Hamas indirectly leeches off our tax dollars because Netanyahu has been propping it up for years.
This means our tax dollars are used to support two terrorist organizations -- Israel AND Hamas.
you care more about your tax dollars (or the long term goal of seeing Israel wither on the vine and die w/o U.S. support) than actually helping the people in Gaza--you focus on the former instead of calling for immediate solutions (Hamas surrendering) that would help the people in a flash of an eye.
How would Hamas's surrender help Palestinians in the long term? Would it stop settler thugs in the West Bank from perpetrating their KKK-style predations on Palestinian homes and land? Wouldn't it just encourage Israel to continue dehumanizing Palestinians?
Of course, I want my tax dollars spent ethically. Israel, in its current incarnation, needs to die on the vine. It's an apartheid state that is currently butchering thousands of children. I don't see why I need to help fund such evil.
You are a cosseted person with the luxury of having opinions that entire nations should cease to exist.
You are a cosseted person who can support terrorists and zealots because you assume they'll never come anywhere near you.
You have an inflated opinion about how your "tax dollars" entitle you to influence other nations. For all your talk about Israel being full of "colonizers" you are the worst kind of armchair imperialist.
What is your view about how much of an opinion Americans are entitled to have about how their tax dollars are spent? Since you seem to draw the limit sometime before “posting on an internet politics discussion board” you clearly don’t have a very expansive view of the first amendment.
As we still live in a free nation you are free to have as many ill-considered opinions as you please. But when you start yelling like an irate first class passenger who's been denied a seat in the airport lounge about your tax dollars, I am free to laugh at you and your arrogant assumptions that paying American taxes should give your foreign policy ideas some weight.
Again, you're the worst kind of armchair imperialist. That's my opinion.
Israel is literally the worst strategic partner the U.S. has had in 247 years of existence. They intentionally bombed the USS Liberty, killing over 30 sailors and injuring another 170+; engaged spies like Pollard to set the work of the NSA back by 10 - 15 years; and manufactured false evidence of WMDs, and actively deceived the U.S. into implicating Iraq for involvement in the events of 9/11, treachery which lead to thousands of dead U.S. servicemen and women, hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, and over $750B in U.S. funding wasted in that godforsaken desert of the Middle East.
Israel's defenders are anti-American. Now that they have argued for criminal prosecution of those who criticize the IDF's actions in Gaza, they should face treason charges in that same venue.
They also didn’t send any troops after 9/11 to help us nor are they in NATO.
Despite being the cheerleaders and warmongers for the war in Iraq , they didn’t send one soldier and who can blame them?
The US can only blame themselves. Blackmailed politicians are too afraid to speak up to Israel. Even Jewish American politicians are scared of Israel and what Mossad has on them.
Their existence should be defended but their overwhelming power over US politicians and foreign intelligence apparatus needs to be diminished significantly . Why would we trust Israeli intelligence over any other intelligence in the region? Everyone has their own agenda and writes reports based on their own “findings” /agendas
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
Correct on graves, but we don't know where these other 80 people came from. If they were being held hostage, tested on, meticulously dismantled piece by piece. The IDF wont say where they got these people from, they wont say what happened - they could clear this little "organ theft" issue right up if theyd just literally say where they got these people and what happened.
If there is an organ theft issue, why return the bodies at all? Why not just burn them? Why not just hold them?
The IDF should be able to answer that, why wont they?
Because there is no need to respond outlandish lies and blood libel?
So where did they get these 80 people from??
How is it blood libel? The idf literally turned over 80 dead bodies. Some of them appear to be missing organs. The idf wont say where they are from or who they are. Or what they did to them.
The ate them, obviously. That’s what they did to them. I think you better be concerned with the living, you great organ theft investigator.
Anonymous wrote:Famous Jewish humor? A particularly subtle use of irony? You tell me
Interesting tidbit:
This is a Melkite Catholic church. The whole town of Iqrith was ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948 when Haganah captured the village and IDF ordered residents (mostly Christian Arabs) to leave, following the directive of the "Arab-less border". They promised the residents they'd be able to return in two weeks. I'll leave it to you to guess what happened then.
In July 1951, the villagers of Iqrit pleaded their case before Israel's Supreme Court, and the court ruled in favour of the right to return to their village. After this judgement, the Military Government found another justification to prevent them from returning. The villagers appealed to the Supreme Court again and were scheduled to have their case considered on 6 February 1952.
However, on Christmas Day in 1951, Israeli Defense Forces destroyed the village. According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs Israeli soldiers took the mukhtar of Iqrit to the top of a nearby hill to force him to watch as Israeli troops blew up every house in the village. Consequently, Jewish villages were build on top of the blown-up community.
Barbaric. A lifetime of resentment and hostility is what that iteration of Israel leadership chose by their actions.
But interestingly there are no Arab Christian terrorists. Food for thought.
That’s strange. I thought Israeli snipers just recently killed two Palestinian Christian women as they sheltered in a Church. And I thought Israel didn’t kill civilians. So those must have been terrorists, right?
But you don't care one bit when Egyptian Muslims bomb, murder, and attack Coptic Christians or when they murdered all the pigs in Egypt under the pretense of "swine flu" and destroyed the food source for millions of Coptic Egyptians?
I hear nothing about it on dcum; almost every 7th of January, Orthodox Christians are murdered when going to church; you don't care, do you? Is it not the time for you to plan your New Year's drunk fest? It is embarrassing how you are defending those who would not blink an eye if you were killed, as it is glory to kill an American and a Christian. And, yes, that goes for many regular, "peace-loving" Muslims.
No, one typically doesn’t plan the “New Years Drunk Fest” a week into the new year, Boris.
Well, you just showed me with your witty response. It is true, stupid don't know they are stupid.
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
We don't know that these corpses were dug up from a grave. We don't know where, how, or when they died. It is possible organs were harvested shortly after these people died, which would certainly make organ transplantation possible. It's easy to cast aspersions on the people and the organization expressing concerns, but why not encourage external oversight that could answer our questions? I really can't understand why you're spending so much time on this rather than simply going with the suggestion of an independent investigation that could shed more light on the medical professionals' concerns.
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
Correct on graves, but we don't know where these other 80 people came from. If they were being held hostage, tested on, meticulously dismantled piece by piece. The IDF wont say where they got these people from, they wont say what happened - they could clear this little "organ theft" issue right up if theyd just literally say where they got these people and what happened.
If there is an organ theft issue, why return the bodies at all? Why not just burn them? Why not just hold them?
The IDF should be able to answer that, why wont they?
Because there is no need to respond outlandish lies and blood libel?
So where did they get these 80 people from??
How is it blood libel? The idf literally turned over 80 dead bodies. Some of them appear to be missing organs. The idf wont say where they are from or who they are. Or what they did to them.
The ate them, obviously. That’s what they did to them. I think you better be concerned with the living, you great organ theft investigator.
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
Correct on graves, but we don't know where these other 80 people came from. If they were being held hostage, tested on, meticulously dismantled piece by piece. The IDF wont say where they got these people from, they wont say what happened - they could clear this little "organ theft" issue right up if theyd just literally say where they got these people and what happened.
If there is an organ theft issue, why return the bodies at all? Why not just burn them? Why not just hold them?
The IDF should be able to answer that, why wont they?
Because there is no need to respond outlandish lies and blood libel?
So where did they get these 80 people from??
How is it blood libel? The idf literally turned over 80 dead bodies. Some of them appear to be missing organs. The idf wont say where they are from or who they are. Or what they did to them.
The ate them, obviously. That’s what they did to them. I think you better be concerned with the living, you great organ theft investigator.
Yes, you know those Jews made their Golem eat them!
In the middle of a Congress without a Speaker and a brink of a government shutdown, billions of dollars can be sent to Israel and Ukraine seemingly overnight and illegal migrants can be given carte Blanche to all the things Americans get told to pay for housing, food, healthcare.
America has too many problems to encourage Israels scorched earth war in Gaza and face war with Russia and Iran too but it looks like that is what we are doing.
Anonymous wrote:Famous Jewish humor? A particularly subtle use of irony? You tell me
Interesting tidbit:
This is a Melkite Catholic church. The whole town of Iqrith was ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948 when Haganah captured the village and IDF ordered residents (mostly Christian Arabs) to leave, following the directive of the "Arab-less border". They promised the residents they'd be able to return in two weeks. I'll leave it to you to guess what happened then.
In July 1951, the villagers of Iqrit pleaded their case before Israel's Supreme Court, and the court ruled in favour of the right to return to their village. After this judgement, the Military Government found another justification to prevent them from returning. The villagers appealed to the Supreme Court again and were scheduled to have their case considered on 6 February 1952.
However, on Christmas Day in 1951, Israeli Defense Forces destroyed the village. According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs Israeli soldiers took the mukhtar of Iqrit to the top of a nearby hill to force him to watch as Israeli troops blew up every house in the village. Consequently, Jewish villages were build on top of the blown-up community.
Barbaric. A lifetime of resentment and hostility is what that iteration of Israel leadership chose by their actions.
But interestingly there are no Arab Christian terrorists. Food for thought.
That’s strange. I thought Israeli snipers just recently killed two Palestinian Christian women as they sheltered in a Church. And I thought Israel didn’t kill civilians. So those must have been terrorists, right?
But you don't care one bit when Egyptian Muslims bomb, murder, and attack Coptic Christians or when they murdered all the pigs in Egypt under the pretense of "swine flu" and destroyed the food source for millions of Coptic Egyptians?
I hear nothing about it on dcum; almost every 7th of January, Orthodox Christians are murdered when going to church; you don't care, do you? Is it not the time for you to plan your New Year's drunk fest? It is embarrassing how you are defending those who would not blink an eye if you were killed, as it is glory to kill an American and a Christian. And, yes, that goes for many regular, "peace-loving" Muslims.
That's because Egypt doesn't cosplay as American ally, the Middle East's only democracy and oh yeah, a light onto nations. We don't expect much from Egypt, and it doesn't typically posture as much as their little neighbor.
Anonymous wrote:Famous Jewish humor? A particularly subtle use of irony? You tell me
Interesting tidbit:
This is a Melkite Catholic church. The whole town of Iqrith was ethnically cleansed by Israel in 1948 when Haganah captured the village and IDF ordered residents (mostly Christian Arabs) to leave, following the directive of the "Arab-less border". They promised the residents they'd be able to return in two weeks. I'll leave it to you to guess what happened then.
In July 1951, the villagers of Iqrit pleaded their case before Israel's Supreme Court, and the court ruled in favour of the right to return to their village. After this judgement, the Military Government found another justification to prevent them from returning. The villagers appealed to the Supreme Court again and were scheduled to have their case considered on 6 February 1952.
However, on Christmas Day in 1951, Israeli Defense Forces destroyed the village. According to the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs Israeli soldiers took the mukhtar of Iqrit to the top of a nearby hill to force him to watch as Israeli troops blew up every house in the village. Consequently, Jewish villages were build on top of the blown-up community.
Barbaric. A lifetime of resentment and hostility is what that iteration of Israel leadership chose by their actions.
But interestingly there are no Arab Christian terrorists. Food for thought.
That’s strange. I thought Israeli snipers just recently killed two Palestinian Christian women as they sheltered in a Church. And I thought Israel didn’t kill civilians. So those must have been terrorists, right?
But you don't care one bit when Egyptian Muslims bomb, murder, and attack Coptic Christians or when they murdered all the pigs in Egypt under the pretense of "swine flu" and destroyed the food source for millions of Coptic Egyptians?
I hear nothing about it on dcum; almost every 7th of January, Orthodox Christians are murdered when going to church; you don't care, do you? Is it not the time for you to plan your New Year's drunk fest? It is embarrassing how you are defending those who would not blink an eye if you were killed, as it is glory to kill an American and a Christian. And, yes, that goes for many regular, "peace-loving" Muslims.
That's because Egypt doesn't cosplay as American ally, the Middle East's only democracy and oh yeah, a light onto nations. We don't expect much from Egypt, and it doesn't typically posture as much as their little neighbor.
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
Correct on graves, but we don't know where these other 80 people came from. If they were being held hostage, tested on, meticulously dismantled piece by piece. The IDF wont say where they got these people from, they wont say what happened - they could clear this little "organ theft" issue right up if theyd just literally say where they got these people and what happened.
If there is an organ theft issue, why return the bodies at all? Why not just burn them? Why not just hold them?
The IDF should be able to answer that, why wont they?
Because there is no need to respond outlandish lies and blood libel?
So where did they get these 80 people from??
How is it blood libel? The idf literally turned over 80 dead bodies. Some of them appear to be missing organs. The idf wont say where they are from or who they are. Or what they did to them.
The ate them, obviously. That’s what they did to them. I think you better be concerned with the living, you great organ theft investigator.
Yes, you know those Jews made their Golem eat them!
Are we going to add "questioning where 80 dead bodies came from" as antisemitic now too?
Anonymous wrote:And here we go again with the accusations of antisemitism and support for Hamas. How about addressing the fact that Israel is just indiscriminately killing innocent people?
You seem to forget they did not start this war. Like any other nation in the world, Israel is has the right to respond.
I’m pretty sure they did when they declared a state without inhabitant stakeholders agreeing….
Anonymous wrote:The level of antisemitism is astounding here.
I am sure someone will soon post how Jews wrote how they would overtake the world in a Jewish Prague cemetery. They did not; haters wrote them, and people still believed them.
Is Israel overly aggressive now? Maybe. Are Palestinians Hamas fanatics? Maybe.
Yet, many of you sound like total racist trash, regardless of whom you are supporting, Israel or Hamas.
No one supports Hamas!!!!
You can’t even admit Israel has gone WAY PAST any norms and is just bombing it all and killing everyone.
A Now we’re at organ theft. Mutilated corpses. Decayed infants. They are never coming back from this on the world stage
This is an outright lie. It is a disgusting and disgraceful lie. Enough. You can be anti-Israel. Fine, get it. But to pass on these barbaric lies about organ theft. Good Lord - you’re taking a page right out of Blood Libel, FFS.
Decayed infants story is true.
Organ theft has happened in the past. Read the newsweek article cited earlier.
Mutilated corpses and organ theft was accused yesterday in a letter and was reported and the allegations were reported by the Washington Post. There was no comment from Israel at the time the Post published the story. You cannot say it is an outright lie.
PP from above has a good point. These were 80 bodies returned by Israel. What happened to these 80 people while under Israeli custody?
What’s happened to the 107 hostages, including young people and infants, that are still being kept by Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
Nice deflection. This has nothing to do with organ theft. If you listen to the rabid, dehumanizing, anti-Palestinian racism coming from Israel’s leaders, you’ll understand why and how organ theft has happened. If you can steal Palestinian land and lives, why would you not steal Palestinian organs?
Your whole argument is that Jews are just so terribly inherently evil, of course they will steal organs. If you think a person or group is the definition of evil, where evil literally flows from, everything that is bad on earth flows from them.
Where do I say “Jews”? I say “Israel’s leaders.” Your claim is absurd. Please stop throwing up melodramatic smoke screens about Jew hatred in a blatant effort to hide Israel’s repugnant behavior. Israel has admitted to organ theft, especially skin theft, in the past, and it is at least possible it is still doing the same thing. This is not conduct an ethical person would want to support.
This is gross distortion of reports - unsubstantiated and denied by Israel - from almost a decade ago. There is no evidence this is happening now. This rumor has been fueled by unsubstantiated claims from a Hamas-aligned organization.
An ethical person isn’t spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews. Enough.
But the former head of the Abu Kabir forensic institute near Tel Aviv, Dr. Yehuda Hiss, acknowledged the practice, so your accusation that people are "spreading blood libel-type rumors to fuel hatred against Jews" is simply histrionic and illogical. Instead of throwing up a smoke screen in an attempt to silence concerns, why not call for an independent investigation to prove or disprove the claims?
"Channel 2 TV reported that in the 1990s, specialists at Abu Kabir harvested skin, corneas, heart valves and bones from the bodies of Israeli soldiers, Israeli citizens, Palestinians and foreign workers, often without permission from relatives.
The Israeli military confirmed to the programme that the practice took place, but added: "This activity ended a decade ago and does not happen any longer."
Hiss said: "We started to harvest corneas ... whatever was done was highly informal. No permission was asked from the family.""
Jumping to the present ... Yesterday, Israel handed over about 80 corpses to officials in the Gaza Strip without any explanation of where they came from. Gaza authorities are saying there are signs of organ theft and have called for an independent international investigation. They are also saying there have been previous incidents since October 7 of corpses missing organs and exhumed corpses. They say Israelis dug up a mass grave and confiscated bodies and that the IDF confiscated dozens of corpses from two hospitals in Gaza.
Given Israel's history and the current information, the concerns are very reasonable. I'm sure we'd all welcome an independent investigation to clear up the matter one way or the other.
Can you tell me which organ can be harvested and TRANSPLANTED from a decaying body?
Organs must usually be harvested and transplanted within hours, although some harvested organs are used in academia for dissection. It appears organs were missing from some of the approximately 80 bodies returned to Gaza. If the organs were harvested, it is likely they were taken from people who had died very recently. Some of the returned bodies were decomposing, so they may have been left to rot after their organs were taken. Corpses confiscated from hospitals in Gaza may have recently died, possibly in the hospital. Bodies that were exhumed from mass graves are less likely to have viable organs, but that depends on how recently they died.
There are non-trivial concerns about illegal organ harvesting. Why not encourage an independent investigation that would clear up the matter one way or the other? If the concerns are groundless, everyone is better off having that out in the open. If they are valid, we need to know that too.
You have to harvest within 60 minutes of circulation cessation. Which is impossible from a. buried body. You have to remove the organs under sterile conditions. No one is going to use an organ from let’s say a victim of an air strike because of the concerns about the integrity of such organ. Stop your nonsense. You are not making any sense. I doubt that organs were missing .One hand you all are saying that Gazan medical infrastructure is gone, on the hand you are saying that they have a team of pathologists examine bodies for missing organs? WTF? Why would they need organs that cannot be transplanted? You seriously believe that Israeli anatomy labs lack organs for dissection so they have to take it from dead Palestinian militants? Israel has a robust LIVE organ transplantation matching program from which Palestinians themselves have benefited from. 80 bodies were returned in accordance with the international law. Unlike your Hamas friends, Israel does not keep the bodies of enemy combatants, to later exchange them for prisoners . Bodies are examined for explosives. Ukraine has been accusing Russia that it was boobytrapping dead Ukrainian and Russian soldiers. It is a common practice to retrieve the bodies of an enemy combatant and then release it to the other side. Just stop! You are not only propagating a vile accusation and a lie, you are also demonstrating how incredibly uneducated you are .
Not to mention that you can’t just transplant from anyone to anyone. There has to be a match, genetically, virus wise, blood type, etc. It takes hours to match donors, you can’t transplant an organ from a dead person if you don’t know anything about the donor .This thread is off the rails. It is so concerning that these uneducated conspiracy prone fools live among us.
Israel has historically had an unusually low rate of organ donations. It also has the largest skin bank in the world, and cryopreserved skin can be stored for extended periods. Gazan authorities expressed concerns about organ harvesting because vital organs were missing from some of the corpses returned yesterday. A nurse could make that determination very quickly, possibly within minutes. Gaza's medical infrastructure has weakened in large part because of a shortage of fuel, meaning many ventilators and dialysis machines, etc., are out of operation, and a shortage of supplies, like anesthesia products, vaccines, antibiotics, etc. This does not mean no medical personnel are available to examine corpses. Israel has not explained where the corpses came from. This is sufficiently concerning that there should be an investigation. Nobody is making absolute claims, so there is no "conspiracy theory" here. Why are you reacting with hysteria to a common sense request for an independent investigation? If there's a reasonable explanation for the missing organs, let's hear it from a team that has studied this rather than from some partisans who are trying to snow further scrutiny under a frenzy of insults. Chill out, and let's wait for confirmation either way before jumping to conclusions.
A nurse cannot make that determination. A doctor cannot make that determination in minutes. You obviously know nothing about pathology exams to make such a stupid claim.
Ever heard of scans? There are some solar generators in Gaza that could allow a scan machine to run, even if there is no other electricity source. You could see very quickly whether or not a kidney, for example, was missing. I've had a kidney scan, and I could see my kidneys as large as life. Even as a non-expert, it would have been immediately obvious to me if they were missing. The technician who performed the scan would certainly have been able to tell. An ultrasound can almost instantly display a fetus that is a fraction of the size of an adult heart. A nurse could certainly cut open a body (or feel around inside a mutilated body) and determine whether an organ was missing. What you're thinking is that a nurse may not typically sign off on a formal autopsy report. This is a legal/administrative issue, not a practical one. I'd be very disappointed in a nurse who couldn't dissect a body or inspect a mutilated body and not notice, for example, if a liver or heart were missing. These inspections need not be formal hours-long autopsies that study every aspect of the corpse and result in pathology reports. They can be quick investigations under wartime conditions. The point is there are valid concerns about organs missing from corpses. Why are you kicking up such a fuss about this and insisting the Gazan officials were wrong? Gazan officials have requested an independent investigation, which suggests they have some confidence in their claims, and the process sounds like a far more effective way to resolve the controversy than bickering about it on a bulletin board.
everything you wrote is garbage. No one is scanning corpses for missing organs. No one is using CAT scans that are life saving for current Palestinian patients to scan corpses. What did you smoke today? No nurses cannot perform autopsies. A nurse, after taking a year of anatomy and physiology in Montgomery college, will
not be able to tell that something is missing or if it’s missing due to anatomical differences, due to prior surgical removal, or because of the way the person died and the organ was destroyed. A non pathologist physician will also not be able to make that conclusion without a pathologist. I am not kicking up a fuss about Gazan officials, I am telling the conspiracy idiots on this board (you included) that there is no reason to remove the organs as they cannot be used for transplantation. Unless you think the IDF is making ornaments out of those missing organs, it’s a rumor started for idiots like you who believe anything no matter how outlandish and magical it is .
Oh, please. If I had a knife (and a stronger stomach), I could open up a corpse based on a college anatomy class and could tell whether or not the kidneys were missing. A second's glance would tell you if eyes were missing from a corpse. I identified a dog's liver and large intestines after witnessing a tragic accident in which a dog was cut open. I called my vet to see if there was anything we could do, and she validated my identification of the exposed organs based on photographs I sent. Identifying the presence or absence of organs isn't rocket science. Are you seriously claiming that a physician couldn't conclude a body was missing its liver or heart but would need a pathologist to help them? That's just hilarious. Yes, it would take a more in-depth investigation to determine exactly how the organs were removed if they were missing, but a physician should be able to make an educated guess, and it's quite possible that more detailed autopsies were performed. This was a high profile situation, and it almost certainly received expert medical attention. You have no clue whether any of the bodies were scanned or not or what equipment may have been used, so you have no basis for definitively claiming that "no one" scanned the bodies. Neither you nor I know where the bodies came from, and the IDF refused to provide any information, so we have no clue when these people died and whether their organs could be used for transplantation. If you can die in a car accident and then have your organs harvested, why is so difficult for you to understand that you can die in detention and have your organs harvested or fall in battle and have your organs trafficked. According to a 2007 WHO study, 5-10% of organ transplants worldwide are performed illegally, and Israel has a history here.
Given this information, how is it conspiratorial to support an investigation? It seems more conspiratorial to claim without proof that these medical professionals were making this stuff up. Organs may or may not have been harvested (unlike you, I am not making any unqualified claims), but there is reasonable suspicion here. An investigation would shed more light on what happened. You like to use the word "idiot." Don't you think you'd have to be an idiot to make an absolute claim, for either side, in this situation without further information?
You lack the fundamental understanding of physiology so I will not fight you on this since clearing you will be able to comprehend of why opening up a grave and taking a body cannot result in organ transplantation. And don’t get me started on that ridiculous organization you cited led by no other than Patrick Falk. And yes, someone who knows about transplantation, gasp, professionally, the claims that you are making are outlandish. And no, a physician, cannot conclusively determine how, when, or why the organ was removed, unless they were a trained pathologist.
Correct on graves, but we don't know where these other 80 people came from. If they were being held hostage, tested on, meticulously dismantled piece by piece. The IDF wont say where they got these people from, they wont say what happened - they could clear this little "organ theft" issue right up if theyd just literally say where they got these people and what happened.
If there is an organ theft issue, why return the bodies at all? Why not just burn them? Why not just hold them?
The IDF should be able to answer that, why wont they?
Because there is no need to respond outlandish lies and blood libel?
So where did they get these 80 people from??
How is it blood libel? The idf literally turned over 80 dead bodies. Some of them appear to be missing organs. The idf wont say where they are from or who they are. Or what they did to them.
The ate them, obviously. That’s what they did to them. I think you better be concerned with the living, you great organ theft investigator.
Yes, you know those Jews made their Golem eat them!
Are we going to add "questioning where 80 dead bodies came from" as antisemitic now too?
Why not? We have long since passed the point where what someone actually says doesn’t matter; but instead, what apparently matters is what they REALLY mean as intuited by complete strangers with Ph.D.’s in Reading between the Lines from Trump University and its 99 Cent Store satellite campus network.
I went to DCUM to discuss the Gaza War and all I got was this lousy “I’ll tell you what you really mean, you anti-semite!” t-shirt.
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