The Urbanist Cult

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

What an ugly post. "F**k you, got mine! And I'm going to make fun of something I don't understand, too!"

Trigger oulled

[Anonymous]

Trigger pulled

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

It’s not a coherent argument because it’s the urbanist fantasy of how we get more affordable housing. Nice self own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

What an ugly post. "F**k you, got mine! And I'm going to make fun of something I don't understand, too!"

Trigger oulled

I often wonder about these people. Like have they every tried working harder to achieve their dreams? Did they ever take a cursory glance at what fields are more compensated than others and try to educate, train themselves and seek gainful employment in them. The idea that just because you got a masters in public planning or somehow think that a degree in economics from a third tier state university is meaningful that you deserve everything you want is completely alien to everyone on the world. I am honestly not sorry that these people did not work harder in school or get the right advice in college ("follow your dreams" is extremely poor advice) or make the right decisions in their lives.

I think the better phrase would be, "f**k you, give me yours because I don't want to work for mine".

I cannot think of a more entitled group of people than these folks. It's incredible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

[Anonymous]

here is what the urbanists leave out in their view that housing will come down in DC if zoning is lifted.

1. The actual price of building a building in DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Remote work will change and has changed much. No commute. Live in the cheaper suburbs.

Terrific. Then there's no reason to spend billions and billions on widening highways, building new highways, and building new bridges.

Meanwhile, however, people who do remote work will still go places. Grocery stores, doctors' offices, schools. How will they get there?

You’re an idiot. I live in the suburbs and have 7 grocery stores, 3 high schools, and 10 doctors offices within 5 minutes from my house. But you know what I don’t have to do? Drive into THE CITY to go to work.

7 grocery stores, 3 high schools, and 10 doctors offices within a 5 minute walk of your house? Wow.

You’re missing the point. Yes, 5 minute drive (not walk) … but that’s a short drive not a long commute. Yes, roads are needed, but remote work will change the density of cities as more people choose to live in suburban and rural places vs the city. That was the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

There's literally no other way to interpret what you said champ. Read what you write. Embarrassing, and racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

There's literally no other way to interpret what you said champ. Read what you write. Embarrassing, and racist.

DP, but PP is not wrong that Thrive Montgomery on its face is likely to deepen the county's east-west divide and inequity. Also, PP seems more inclined to provide integrated, higher quality housing for Black and Brown families than you do. Maybe that's not the case, but going by what each of you wrote, that's what I conclude.

Classic urbanist move, though, calling someone a racist because they disagree with you and when it's clear your arguments don't make any sense. Once your taking points get blown up with reason and evidence, you always try to shutdown the conversation with a racism allegation. Nice job sticking to the script, champ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

There's literally no other way to interpret what you said champ. Read what you write. Embarrassing, and racist.

DP, but PP is not wrong that Thrive Montgomery on its face is likely to deepen the county's east-west divide and inequity. Also, PP seems more inclined to provide integrated, higher quality housing for Black and Brown families than you do. Maybe that's not the case, but going by what each of you wrote, that's what I conclude.

Classic urbanist move, though, calling someone a racist because they disagree with you and when it's clear your arguments don't make any sense. Once your taking points get blown up with reason and evidence, you always try to shutdown the conversation with a racism allegation. Nice job sticking to the script, champ.

I am the PP and also a Person of Color, so I have a personal vested interest in how alleviating the housing affordability crisis and the climate crisis are not done on the backs of Black and Brown people, which is what these "urbanists" are trying to do. SoI thank them for doing a great job reinforcing my point that they are morally bankrupt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

There's literally no other way to interpret what you said champ. Read what you write. Embarrassing, and racist.

DP, but PP is not wrong that Thrive Montgomery on its face is likely to deepen the county's east-west divide and inequity. Also, PP seems more inclined to provide integrated, higher quality housing for Black and Brown families than you do. Maybe that's not the case, but going by what each of you wrote, that's what I conclude.

Classic urbanist move, though, calling someone a racist because they disagree with you and when it's clear your arguments don't make any sense. Once your taking points get blown up with reason and evidence, you always try to shutdown the conversation with a racism allegation. Nice job sticking to the script, champ.

I am the PP and also a Person of Color, so I have a personal vested interest in how alleviating the housing affordability crisis and the climate crisis are not done on the backs of Black and Brown people, which is what these "urbanists" are trying to do. SoI thank them for doing a great job reinforcing my point that they are morally bankrupt.

Wokes: "Listen to black people."
Black Person: [says something unwoke]
Wokes: "No! Not THAT black person. He has internalized whiteness!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

There's literally no other way to interpret what you said champ. Read what you write. Embarrassing, and racist.

DP, but PP is not wrong that Thrive Montgomery on its face is likely to deepen the county's east-west divide and inequity. Also, PP seems more inclined to provide integrated, higher quality housing for Black and Brown families than you do. Maybe that's not the case, but going by what each of you wrote, that's what I conclude.

Classic urbanist move, though, calling someone a racist because they disagree with you and when it's clear your arguments don't make any sense. Once your taking points get blown up with reason and evidence, you always try to shutdown the conversation with a racism allegation. Nice job sticking to the script, champ.

I am the PP and also a Person of Color, so I have a personal vested interest in how alleviating the housing affordability crisis and the climate crisis are not done on the backs of Black and Brown people, which is what these "urbanists" are trying to do. SoI thank them for doing a great job reinforcing my point that they are morally bankrupt.

Wokes: "Listen to black people."
Black Person: [says something unwoke]
Wokes: "No! Not THAT black person. He has internalized whiteness!"

Clearly there are some issues that you white people need to work out among yourselves, but please leave us out of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So many boomer brain worms in this thread! You anti urbanist people get less and less credible the more you talk.

Sad little Millennial can’t afford a home and dreams that changing zoning regs will somehow make housing affordable for “they.”

The sad thing is that people like you play it both ways. When someone is an apartment-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you accuse them of being jealous of SFH-dwellers and wanting to ruin what they can't have. When someone is a SFH-dweller and advocates for upzoning, you call them a hypocrite who wants to dictate how everyone else should live.

Who exactly is allowed to advocate for upzoning?

Haha. I didn’t intend to say you were not qualified to argue.. I was pointing out your argument isn’t qualified by reason. Why don’t need more crap housing in dc - there are already plenty of condos.

It most certainly is qualified by reason. Building more housing slows the rate of growth in housing prices. Sorry to hear that you're triggered by facts!

What a neat trick. Have you told developers that? I’m sure they’ll be racing to build more housing when they find out that building more housing will kill their margins.

You're not doing a very good job of communicating a cohesive argument. Developers would love to build more housing in DC but are stymied by zoning regulations, height limits, onerous historic district guidelines, etc.

Or is this just a failed attempt to be clever?

Supply isn’t driven by the number of approved units. It’s driven by demand at the high end of the market, which is driven by household incomes. That’s a much more coherent argument than market urbanism.

You make the mistake of assuming that units tied up by zoning or historic preservation would be delivered in addition to the other units that were actually built. It’s much more likely that only one or the other would be delivered at/near the same time unless demand at the high end of the market increases.

If developers wanted to build more, they could. They’re not building as much as is allowed. Therefore, regulation is not the primary constraint on deliveries. It must be something else.

These are very great points. The one thing I think about a lot is how long it has even taken the Toll Brothers to build the 200+ single family homes at the WMAL site. The plan was approved in 2017, they just demolished the towers last summer, construction has just started and they will slowly deliver the units over two phases over several years. This is for highly coveted new construction single family homes inside the beltway!

Not only did they wait for the right conditions to start building, they are in no rush to deliver. They will slowly leak the homes onto the market over time to ensure that they maximize their profit.

There is this simplistic view by market urbanists (and YIMBYs) that housing is a commodity like soy beans. If only the market was freed up to produce more the price would clear and it would get cheaper. The behavior of major developers belies this truth. They know how to manage supply and in fact, if they were not capable of effectively managing supply to keep prices high they would stupidly end up defaulting.

So not only is there a lot of ignorance about real estate finance and a simplistic understanding of economics, they also seem to lack historical knowledge and insight. If it was not for the S&L scandal in the 80s, the reference points for housing costs would be drastically different. During the 80s, developers were not trying to make money build housing. They were trying to make money defrauding banks and many were quite successful at it. They took out big loans, sometimes built cheap crap that are now death traps (like the Surfside condo or the Rock Creek Woods apartments) and sometimes didn't build anything at all and then ran off with the money.

There is just a complete unwillingness to deal with reality which is intellectually fascinating on the one hand, but also obviously extremely concerning on the other because the stage is set for really bad policy to get made that could have very real and serious repercussions for the future, like for example, poor Black and Brown families in this county unnecessarily cramped into overcrowded conditions in one and two bedroom apartments with a facile justification that it is necessary for climate change. It's quite morally bankrupt.

Wow, lots of wrong thinking in here. Obviously part of a market-based approach is to ensure things that are zoning differently actually result in housing. That's... obvious. Simply letting the land sit there empty is no good.

And nobody is saying to put non-white people into slums. Wtf are you talking about? Jesus christ.

I never said anything about slums. You’re projecting, which says a lot about you.

Funny how you just wave away strong criticism with “you’re wrong”. Absolute joke that and perfectly in keeping that you have one talking point and absolutely no clue how the actual world works.

There's literally no other way to interpret what you said champ. Read what you write. Embarrassing, and racist.

DP, but PP is not wrong that Thrive Montgomery on its face is likely to deepen the county's east-west divide and inequity. Also, PP seems more inclined to provide integrated, higher quality housing for Black and Brown families than you do. Maybe that's not the case, but going by what each of you wrote, that's what I conclude.

Classic urbanist move, though, calling someone a racist because they disagree with you and when it's clear your arguments don't make any sense. Once your taking points get blown up with reason and evidence, you always try to shutdown the conversation with a racism allegation. Nice job sticking to the script, champ.

I am the PP and also a Person of Color, so I have a personal vested interest in how alleviating the housing affordability crisis and the climate crisis are not done on the backs of Black and Brown people, which is what these "urbanists" are trying to do. SoI thank them for doing a great job reinforcing my point that they are morally bankrupt.

Building new housing is not racist. Insinuating as such is a slap in the face to the many people who do, in fact, experience prejudice. Nothing is done "on the backs" of anybody. Insinuating people who wish for walkable, dense neighborhoods are racist is silly, and not productive. Do better champ.