Favorite College that changes lives?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

Puget Sound is awesome. Really great school. Fun, safe area. Down to earth, not dogmatic, smart hard-working kids. Cool science and music buildings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

For those who like UPS (and other PNW schools), Lewis & Clark might be worth a look too. It's not on the CTCL list, but it probably could be. The campus is gorgeous!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

For those who like UPS (and other PNW schools), Lewis & Clark might be worth a look too. It's not on the CTCL list, but it probably could be. The campus is gorgeous!

+1 my friend is from the PNW (lives in DC) and her kids go to UPS and Lewis & Clark.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's a list of the schools in question. Which ones do you like? Hate? Have never heard of?

https://ctcl.org/category/college-profiles/

I loved Lawrence University in Appleton, WI when we visited. It is both an LAC and a music conservatory. It had a very pleasant feel and a pretty setting, straddling the Fox River. From Lawrence, we drove out to Björklunden, a 425-acre satellite campus, about 1.5 hours from the main campus on the shores of Lake Michigan in Door County. It was the most heavenly place, and students can go there for seminars and summer classes. Lawrence has a marine program (LUMP, or Lawrence University Marine Program) in which students take three marine biology classes over the same trimester, and a 2-week field trip to the Caribbean is included. Lawrence also offers classes in London and Senegal. Since DC was considering a double degree in marine biology and music performance, it felt like a good fit. We absolutely loved it. DC ended up at a different school, but Lawrence was the one I'd have chosen if it were up to me.

Thanks - evaluating a really nice merit offer now. Haven’t been, but headed there for an admitted students day. How important would you say is fitting in a visit to Björklunden to understanding the overall experience?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

Name the schools

I mean shit, the first two no-name directionals I looked up at random had higher percentages in the top quarter of their class than JMU.

University of North Texas: 38%
Southeast Missouri State: 43%

I could find many more if I really wanted to, because face it, JMU, at 29%, scores extremely poorly on this metric. Keep spanking, though.

You said "most" therefore can you name more? Two isn't significant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

Name the schools

I mean shit, the first two no-name directionals I looked up at random had higher percentages in the top quarter of their class than JMU.

University of North Texas: 38%
Southeast Missouri State: 43%

I could find many more if I really wanted to, because face it, JMU, at 29%, scores extremely poorly on this metric. Keep spanking, though.

You said "most" therefore can you name more? Two isn't significant.

Might I suggest this become a spin-off post about JMU?

[Anonymous]

*spinoff thread, I mean

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hillsdale is most conservative on that list.

If Trump, "alternative facts," hypocrisy, racism, etc. are all your bag, Hillsdale might be an excellent fit.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/08/magazine/hillsdale-2020-election.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/11/15/us/scandal-rocks-a-conservative-campus.html
https://www.hillsdale.edu/about/mission/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

For those who like UPS (and other PNW schools), Lewis & Clark might be worth a look too. It's not on the CTCL list, but it probably could be. The campus is gorgeous!

Lewis & Clark is somewhat similar to UPS, but it definitely has more of a trustafarian vibe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

For those who like UPS (and other PNW schools), Lewis & Clark might be worth a look too. It's not on the CTCL list, but it probably could be. The campus is gorgeous!

Lewis & Clark is somewhat similar to UPS, but it definitely has more of a trustafarian vibe.

If that's a statement about trust fund and not the style in which the trust fund is expressed, in terms of family income, Lewis & Clark and University of the Puget Sound are nearly identical, with UPS slightly higher.
Median family income Lewis & Clark: 130,900 UPS:138,500.
60% of students at Lewis & Clark come from the top 20% income, 61% at UPS.
7.7% of students at Lewis & Clark are from the top 1%, 7.6% at UPS.
4.4% at L&C are from the bottom 20%, 3.1% at UPS.

I love this NYTimes upshot tool! I hope they continue to update it with new data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

Name the schools

I mean shit, the first two no-name directionals I looked up at random had higher percentages in the top quarter of their class than JMU.

University of North Texas: 38%
Southeast Missouri State: 43%

I could find many more if I really wanted to, because face it, JMU, at 29%, scores extremely poorly on this metric. Keep spanking, though.

You said "most" therefore can you name more? Two isn't significant.

I'd have an easier time finding schools that do than you would finding schools that don't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

For those who like UPS (and other PNW schools), Lewis & Clark might be worth a look too. It's not on the CTCL list, but it probably could be. The campus is gorgeous!

My impression of L&C is that it's significantly more woke than UPS, Whitman, and Willamette - but nowhere near Reed's level of SJW craziness.

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good! we're def down for a woke environment.

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Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the GPNW and know the schools on this list from that region pretty well--have had friends attend all of them. They're all great places for kids who dig their respective ethos. In alpha order:

Evergreen State is super hippie. Like a left coast version of UNC-Asheville only more so. Or a mini UC Santa Cruz. More intellectual than academic, if that makes sense.

Reed is intense. Like a less selective but no less ambitious Swarthmore--but with lots of black eyeliner and hard drugs. If you're not both brilliant and cynical, it's not your spot.

UPS is kind of like a miniaturized flagship. Solid for business, music, and liberal arts and sciences. Wide range of kids there, almost all of them happy.

Whitman is like west coast Middlebury but in a bigger, better town (but also way further from anything else). For kids who check the "intellectual," "outdoorsy," and "at least somewhat preppy" boxes, it's heaven.

Willamette is right next to the state capital and is a school for go-getters, across a decent range of raw intellectual firepower levels.

Which of these schools would work for a moderately conservative student who is interested in that area of the country?

UPS or Willamette for sure. Probably Whitman, too. Definitely not Reed or Evergreen State.

I second UPS for this description. Work in Seattle in non-profit adjacent to people in finance annd investment management work and the its littered with UPS grads who are down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues.

Which one of those schools is UPS? I don't understand the abbreviation.

"UPS" is the University of Puget Sound in Tacoma, WA. I had to smile when I read PP's description of a UPS grad ("down to earth, slightly conservative for this area, sporty into adulthood, and a bit more “East Coast” than my other colleagues") as it so perfectly describes the one UPS grad I know. Rather preppy Marin County type. Definitely down to earth. Liberal, but not so much for Seattle. Very hard-working. Extremely polite. LOTS of interests and specific knowledge of a very wide range of subjects, which indicates a broad education. I was impressed with the guy.

University of Puget Sound was on my kid's list last year and it was my favorite tour. The students were friendly, smart and happy. The campus is beautiful. They seemed to have a nice community. I liked Tacoma. They fed us really great ice cream. The financial aid package was good.

Alas, my kid decided to go elsewhere.

For those who like UPS (and other PNW schools), Lewis & Clark might be worth a look too. It's not on the CTCL list, but it probably could be. The campus is gorgeous!

My impression of L&C is that it's significantly more woke than UPS, Whitman, and Willamette - but nowhere near Reed's level of SJW craziness.

Visited UPS, Whitman, L&C, and Reed. With no judgement ascribed, this feels generally accurate to me.

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Anonymous wrote:60 percent of the entering class at Juniata comes from Pennsylvania. It’s no more diverse geographically than a state school. Its SAT average is only a 1220, which is also lower than half the state schools in VA.

I don’t get the appeal.

We know, but you're a joyless middle manager in a boring, over employee IT consulting government job. Odds are, you're not going back to undergrad anytime soon.

Nope. That’s another poster. I’m a parent of UVA and top ten liberal arts grads. Had my kids not made the cut for those, they’d have gone to any one of the VA state schools I just listed instead of a Juniata type school, where they would have paid less money for an equal if not greater amount of geographic, economic and racial diversity, and would have attend school with classmates who are at least equally capable and graduating at at least as high if not higher rates. Nice try though.

Then you would not have done your research. I have a kid who is not competitive for those schools (UVA, W&M, T10 LACs) but likes a smaller environment. Her best match in VA was UMW and also looked at SMCM, the public option in MD. These schools are pretty comparable with CTCLs mentioned here when it comes to SAT scores but the private schools tend to do a bit better in retention and graduation and are less exclusively in-state students and generally end up in the same price range.

UMW=87% in-state
Kalamazoo=65%
Ursinus=63%
Juniata=56% (and 11% international)

UMW's 4 yr graduation rate = 59%. The others are a bit higher, 66-71%
Net prices for a family with a $110K+ HHI is about $30k for all these schools.

Or I could ignore her desire for a small school and insist on JMU. 73% in-state students, similar average net price, grad rate in the same range as the listed CTCLs, similar SATs to Juniata, both of them a little lower than Kalamazoo and Ursinus.

So, on the stats and cost, the in-state schools you think are superior are pretty much the same as the LACs you denigrate. Obviously, no school is good for everyone and different schools have different strengths and unique resources so you need to do the research to find a good fit.

https://nces.ed.gov/collegenavigator/?q=james+madison&s=all&fv=213251+216524+170532+232681+232423&cp=1&sl=213251+170532+216524+232681

The one distinguishing factor that you appear to have left out is that the typical CTCL school attracts underachieving kids from affluent families who need hand holding, as opposed to hard-working students. That makes a difference.

DP: Alright, let's just compare based on the latest CDS. Take Kalamazoo and JMU from the PPs list above. They are two schools in the running for my kid who is a sophomore in HS now.
Kalamazoo has higher SAT scores, with more students reporting: 1200-1370, 43% reported scores (38% SAT, 5% ACT)
JMU: 1180-1310, 26% reported scores (23% SAT, 3% ACT).
39% of students at Kalamazoo were in the top 10% of their class, 67% in the top quarter, and 95% in the top half.
At JMU, 17% are in the top 10%, 29.4% in top quarter, and 88% are in the top half.

So how exactly are these kids less hard-working?

22% of students are first gen at Kalamazoo, 24% receive Pell grants, 31% are domestic students of color. Nearly everyone gets financial assistance to attend. And there's lots of financial assistance for internships and study abroad experiences there too.

I think you're operating with some pretty sloppy biases to say these schools are full of underachieving, affluent kids.

How do the JMU spankers explain this one? These are terrible numbers. Even most directional state unis have more than 3 out of 10 students coming from the top quarter of their class.

Name the schools

I mean shit, the first two no-name directionals I looked up at random had higher percentages in the top quarter of their class than JMU.

University of North Texas: 38%
Southeast Missouri State: 43%

I could find many more if I really wanted to, because face it, JMU, at 29%, scores extremely poorly on this metric. Keep spanking, though.

You said "most" therefore can you name more? Two isn't significant.

I'd have an easier time finding schools that do than you would finding schools that don't.

Can you name them?