Most over-ranked/under-ranked LACS on USNWR?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

The list of the top PhD feeder schools does not really correspond with the USNWR rankings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Maybe that’s the case in science and math. It definitely isn’t the case in social sciences or humanities at all. Most of the professors are not well known researchers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

[Anonymous]

Just stop

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

Except when that kid is competing against the ones who do succeed in getting the letter from a top prof. Plus the reality is that the more elite the name, the more quickly the doors open. That's just reality. Amherst, Swarthmore, and now Bowdoin feed to top law and medical schools. Can other LAC students earn admission to those top schools? Of course. But being part of an established pipeline confers a meaningful advantage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

And the best departments track pretty well with the most well known schools. You’re making a pizza and putting all the toppings in the middle.

Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, Carleton and Harvey Mudd are gonna be a good boost to your application.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just stop

It’s a productive conversation. Keep scrolling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

And the best departments track pretty well with the most well known schools. You’re making a pizza and putting all the toppings in the middle.

Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, Carleton and Harvey Mudd are gonna be a good boost to your application.

And the next 10-15 are likely to get virtually the same results unless you are gunning for Wall Street or MBB there isn't a difference. And the T20 LACs are going to get results similar to the T20 Universities

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

And the best departments track pretty well with the most well known schools. You’re making a pizza and putting all the toppings in the middle.

Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, Carleton and Harvey Mudd are gonna be a good boost to your application.

But again, you’re just assuming that because kids from top undergrad go to top grad, that’s *because* they went to a top undergrad. But it mostly isn’t. It’s because top students predominantly go to top undergrads, and because they are top students they also go to top grads. Admissions committees are not like, “oh golly gee whiz, this kid went to AMHERST I am blown away.” They mostly don’t care so long as you didn’t go to some backwater or place they’ve barely heard of. They want to see your test scores, grades, interest/background, recs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

Except when that kid is competing against the ones who do succeed in getting the letter from a top prof. Plus the reality is that the more elite the name, the more quickly the doors open. That's just reality. Amherst, Swarthmore, and now Bowdoin feed to top law and medical schools. Can other LAC students earn admission to those top schools? Of course. But being part of an established pipeline confers a meaningful advantage.

Yes, I agree the pipeline point is important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

And the best departments track pretty well with the most well known schools. You’re making a pizza and putting all the toppings in the middle.

Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, Carleton and Harvey Mudd are gonna be a good boost to your application.

But again, you’re just assuming that because kids from top undergrad go to top grad, that’s *because* they went to a top undergrad. But it mostly isn’t. It’s because top students predominantly go to top undergrads, and because they are top students they also go to top grads. Admissions committees are not like, “oh golly gee whiz, this kid went to AMHERST I am blown away.” They mostly don’t care so long as you didn’t go to some backwater or place they’ve barely heard of. They want to see your test scores, grades, interest/background, recs.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’ve seen an admissions committee bend a few rules for certain ivies and graduates of LACs that they’ve had great students from in the past. Hell, my Alma mater has a direct pipeline PhD program they ask their students to go to, because all the faculty have graduated from there, and quite a few come back to teach again at the same school. The faculty difference at LACs pulls its weight. I really don’t get your POV, because we all know a Harvard and Wake forest grad will not have close outcomes, even if the wake forest grad is top, but it’s all up for contention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

And the best departments track pretty well with the most well known schools. You’re making a pizza and putting all the toppings in the middle.

Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, Carleton and Harvey Mudd are gonna be a good boost to your application.

And the next 10-15 are likely to get virtually the same results unless you are gunning for Wall Street or MBB there isn't a difference. And the T20 LACs are going to get results similar to the T20 Universities

There’s pretty stark difference between the top lacs and the above average LACs in terms of fellowship attainment and grad school outcomes. If your goal is purely money, scratch the list and bring in Williams, Mudd, and CMC, but that’s not the point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMHO they are all basically the same academically, so choose the one your kid likes best.

+1 it’s all angels dancing on the head of a pin at this level

So Kenyon is the same level as Pomona? Yeah…right

Yes.

This is delusional. Someone is Kenyon boosting for no reason.

Not PP - but honestly what greatness is going to befall a Pomona grad that will elude a Kenyon grad? The percentage of the population that has heard of these schools or can meaningfully differentiate among them (including educated people) is very small. Frankly the debates that take place here - where there is vast disagreement about the schools among people who are weirdly obsessed with them - prove the point. It’s like asking which of two obscure cheeses nobody heard of is definitively better.

I can’t tell if this is the DC bias or an honest opinion. There’s quite a bit of professional and academic outcome difference. I get that most people haven’t heard of them, but any recruiter would see the difference, unless you’re applying for a job in Cincinnati.

+1, saying that you can’t tell the difference between Williams and Oberlin or Pomona and Kenyon is a ridiculous statement. It’s definitely an incorrect and dumb assessment by a mom “fed up” with LAC talk.

Honestly, you take the same kid, put him or her at any of these schools, they will likely end up in the same place.

100% true as long as you aren’t majoring in Econ, political science, bio, thinking about grad school and want to go to a good one, or want a nice fellowship post grad! Otherwise, the exact same places.

You think a grad from say a t35 lac is going to be at a disadvantage to one from a t15 lac when say applying to law school if lsat scores are same; gpa is same; essays are same?

The main reason outcomes are better at higher ranked schools is that student quality is on average higher.

It’s actually possible that a student might have a shot at a better outcome coming from a school where the competition is less fierce.

Look, all things being equal, there is value in having a marginally stronger brand… but let’s not get carried away with the impact.

+100

Maybe, but if you're in the top 10% at a T5 LAC you will have better outcomes than if you're top 10% at a T35 LAC. There is a difference. Employers and grad schools know it.

Most grad school admissions are not focused on undergraduate school rank (within reason). And if you’re a top 10% student at a T5 LAC you would likely be a top 1/2/5% student at a T35. We are talking about the same student just in different places.

This is actually a real poor understanding of the differences between faculty. It sounds nice and all that everything is equitable, but the reality is that the top lacs have better research faculty than most lac that means their recommendations carry heavier weight when you’re applying to a grad program. Especially the lacs with their own REUs benefit, because that indicates they have teaching faculty that also have decent research output.

Nope, I’m actually well aware of that. The problem with your take is that you are going to have tons of strong students at a top LAC all competing for those same recs from a few truly top profs, with most likely needing to settle for recs from the “lesser” profs. In the end there won’t be that big of a difference with the strong kid at the somewhat lower ranked LAC that can get the department head to provide a rec, for example.

There’s quite a few hard-hitting prof in each department, at least in science and mathematics) LACs have stumbled a bit in the humanities). Not everyone is gunning for those profs as advisors as most, presumably, aren’t going to grad school. No LAC is producing 10 incoming PhD candidates in every department in 1 year, so any “competition” is artificial.

And to the other comment, while the lac phd producing list isn’t an exact replica of the USNews list, it’s pretty damn similar. The only shocking difference is Reed, who has been explained 1000 times as a previous top 10 LAC.

Honestly if your kid wants to pursue a PhD for whatever reason- you pick the school based on department strengths and characteristics - I don’t think you have to worry too much over the USNWR prestige game which matters more for business arguably because of network and brand

And the best departments track pretty well with the most well known schools. You’re making a pizza and putting all the toppings in the middle.

Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, Reed, Carleton and Harvey Mudd are gonna be a good boost to your application.

But again, you’re just assuming that because kids from top undergrad go to top grad, that’s *because* they went to a top undergrad. But it mostly isn’t. It’s because top students predominantly go to top undergrads, and because they are top students they also go to top grads. Admissions committees are not like, “oh golly gee whiz, this kid went to AMHERST I am blown away.” They mostly don’t care so long as you didn’t go to some backwater or place they’ve barely heard of. They want to see your test scores, grades, interest/background, recs.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. I’ve seen an admissions committee bend a few rules for certain ivies and graduates of LACs that they’ve had great students from in the past. Hell, my Alma mater has a direct pipeline PhD program they ask their students to go to, because all the faculty have graduated from there, and quite a few come back to teach again at the same school. The faculty difference at LACs pulls its weight. I really don’t get your POV, because we all know a Harvard and Wake forest grad will not have close outcomes, even if the wake forest grad is top, but it’s all up for contention.

Harvard vs Wake is extreme example. And the debate isn't really Williams vs. Denison either. The debate is #12 vs #28.