Yu Ying - Do/Can Non-Native Kids Actually SPEAK Chinese?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Agree wholeheartedly with the Chinese poster just passing by.

Nobody's criticizing the families whose kids speak lousy Chinese after many years of immersion study. They're criticizing a pedagogical arrangement that's something of a joke, without incentives built in for the school or families to ensure that the kids speak well.

There are plenty of criticisms of YY families on these threads. Including clueless, delusional, elitist, and my favorite, too poor for JKLM-Brent-Maury. I'm sorry you didn't like it when people called out the unsavory truth that many ethnic Chinese are extremely prejudiced against black people, but you are the delusional one if you think it doesn't play a role in YY-Chinese relations.

Yes, they can be extremely prejudiced against black people, my own parents, aunts, uncles and grandparents for example.

You sound AA. So what draws you to Chinese immersion? I study the language of cultures I admire, and steer my children in the same direction.

NP. Yes, there's prejudice against AAs amongst many Chinese immigrants and some ABCs. But that's a separate issue. And it doesn't change the fact that the quality of Mandarin instruction at YY is poor. Language proficiency is language proficiency. After so many years of study and especially considering that many of the students started at a young age, their Mandarin skills should be much better.

[Anonymous]

Yes, absolutely, even without an influx of native speakers, YY could take bold steps to improving Mandarin instruction. Parents putting in for the YY lottery could be advised to expect higher standards, harder work and a lot more kids who can't cope being bumped down to the non-immersion track.

YY has made a strategic error in hiring almost all of its Chinese teachers from the Mainland, where teacher training generally leaves a lot to be desired. Putting them under the direction of a HOS who doesn't speak Mandarin and another major dialect hasn't helped. The Chinese staff should be a mix of ABCs (including Canadians) and Asians (including Taiwanese, Singaporeans and Mainland Chinese) as at the MoCo programs.

Chinese after-care could be made mandatory for students without a native speaker in the home (normal in Cal, Canada, Switzerland etc.), along with 4-6 weeks of summer immersion camp, either on site or off (e.g. Concordia). With effort, the PA could raise the funds for the extra immersion. Pricey trips to China aren't as useful.

YY could also partner with Metro area programs serving native-speaking kids. Some of the MoCo heritage programs would love access to flashy YY's facilities on weekends, with chances for the bilingual and YY kids to mix.

[Anonymous]

This thread (like all the other YY threads on this board) is so sad and circular. Just groups of people shouting past each other.

YY parents, in aggregate, simply don't prioritize the way that the ABC champions think they should. Neither does the dastardly, monolingual, and <gasp> AA principal. The parents, and the school, prioritize English literacy and numeracy above Chinese proficiency (which is why Mandarin achievement -- or lack thereof -- is irrelevant to placement in the non-immersion track, which exists for kids struggling with English to the extent that they need more time devoted to that more important language). Most of the parents also prioritize other things (sports, music, scouts, etc.) over marginal Mandarin achievement -- preferences revealed by their kids' afterschool and weekend activities.

The parents wish the school were better -- as do all parents wish about all schools -- but there's not a lot of hand-wringing over the Mandarin instruction in particular. The kids are far further along in all aspects of language acquisition than they would be with just an "exposure" curriculum, and they don't seem to be giving up anything in English, math, or otherwise, so it's a clear win. Even if it's not the win the ABC champions want.

[Anonymous]

My kids cheerfully speak Mandarin at the near native speaker level and don't seem to have "given up anything" in English or math. No, they score 5s on both PARCC sections. They also play sports.

YY could attract parents who prioritize language immersion by marketing and delivering a world-class immersion product, instead of merely a world-class building. The parents YY attracts know they don't have to be serious about the Mandarin. That could change. Come on, the HOS isn't dastardly, she's under-qualified for the job. A strong replacement could do wonders to raise the bar on Mandarin instruction. I see it happening eventually, once unimpressive IB Diploma results light a fire under PA parents.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for sharing.

Now we get it. You guys don't want to work that hard, so you find a ready excuse in claiming that the path to fluent Mandarin for young Americans would jeopardize high attainment in English and math.

We sympathize, knowing how studying German, French and English coterminously torpedo math learning in Swiss elementary schools, and how studying Swedish, Finnish and English derail math progress for Finnish children. Shame on those European parents, for screwing their kids up like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread (like all the other YY threads on this board) is so sad and circular. Just groups of people shouting past each other.

YY parents, in aggregate, simply don't prioritize the way that the ABC champions think they should. Neither does the dastardly, monolingual, and <gasp> AA principal. The parents, and the school, prioritize English literacy and numeracy above Chinese proficiency (which is why Mandarin achievement -- or lack thereof -- is irrelevant to placement in the non-immersion track, which exists for kids struggling with English to the extent that they need more time devoted to that more important language). Most of the parents also prioritize other things (sports, music, scouts, etc.) over marginal Mandarin achievement -- preferences revealed by their kids' afterschool and weekend activities.

The parents wish the school were better -- as do all parents wish about all schools -- but there's not a lot of hand-wringing over the Mandarin instruction in particular. The kids are far further along in all aspects of language acquisition than they would be with just an "exposure" curriculum, and they don't seem to be giving up anything in English, math, or otherwise, so it's a clear win. Even if it's not the win the ABC champions want.

NP. Problem is, pp, that Chinese immersion instruction for children that sticks isn't for dilettantes.

Learning Chinese means mastering at least 4 tones and 3,000 characters for basic literacy, strong indications that the language is better mastered young than as an adult.

Parents must make tough choices about their children's academic and extra-curricular achievements. You're assuming that "marginal Mandarin achievement" is all that's possible for kids who aren't ABCs, and that working hard at Chinese would necessarily put downward pressure on English and math instruction.

This is BS for immersion families who are up to the challenge of high achievement. If you doubt this, you can visit WIS, Sidwell Friends or College Gardens in MoCo, where Chinese, English and math are all taught, and learned, to a high standard from K on up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kids cheerfully speak Mandarin at the near native speaker level and don't seem to have "given up anything" in English or math. No, they score 5s on both PARCC sections. They also play sports.

YY could attract parents who prioritize language immersion by marketing and delivering a world-class immersion product, instead of merely a world-class building. The parents YY attracts know they don't have to be serious about the Mandarin. That could change. Come on, the HOS isn't dastardly, she's under-qualified for the job. A strong replacement could do wonders to raise the bar on Mandarin instruction. I see it happening eventually, once unimpressive IB Diploma results light a fire under PA parents.

You are wrong. You'd also have to turn the whole board over. Read their mission statement and founding documents. It isn't all about the Mandarin. It just isn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread (like all the other YY threads on this board) is so sad and circular. Just groups of people shouting past each other.

YY parents, in aggregate, simply don't prioritize the way that the ABC champions think they should. Neither does the dastardly, monolingual, and <gasp> AA principal. The parents, and the school, prioritize English literacy and numeracy above Chinese proficiency (which is why Mandarin achievement -- or lack thereof -- is irrelevant to placement in the non-immersion track, which exists for kids struggling with English to the extent that they need more time devoted to that more important language). Most of the parents also prioritize other things (sports, music, scouts, etc.) over marginal Mandarin achievement -- preferences revealed by their kids' afterschool and weekend activities.

The parents wish the school were better -- as do all parents wish about all schools -- but there's not a lot of hand-wringing over the Mandarin instruction in particular. The kids are far further along in all aspects of language acquisition than they would be with just an "exposure" curriculum, and they don't seem to be giving up anything in English, math, or otherwise, so it's a clear win. Even if it's not the win the ABC champions want.

NP. Problem is, pp, that Chinese immersion instruction for children that sticks isn't for dilettantes.

Learning Chinese means mastering at least 4 tones and 3,000 characters for basic literacy, strong indications that the language is better mastered young than as an adult.

Parents must make tough choices about their children's academic and extra-curricular achievements. You're assuming that "marginal Mandarin achievement" is all that's possible for kids who aren't ABCs, and that working hard at Chinese would necessarily put downward pressure on English and math instruction.

This is BS for immersion families who are up to the challenge of high achievement. If you doubt this, you can visit WIS, Sidwell Friends or College Gardens in MoCo, where Chinese, English and math are all taught, and learned, to a high standard from K on up.

Neither WIS nor Sidwell starts Chinese until middle school.

[Anonymous]

Not quite, they are among the private elementary schools that do pullouts for Chinese-speaking students, and after-school Chinese.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not quite, they are among the private elementary schools that do pullouts for Chinese-speaking students, and after-school Chinese.

They don't start Chinese instruction for English-dominant students in elementary school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids cheerfully speak Mandarin at the near native speaker level and don't seem to have "given up anything" in English or math. No, they score 5s on both PARCC sections. They also play sports.

YY could attract parents who prioritize language immersion by marketing and delivering a world-class immersion product, instead of merely a world-class building. The parents YY attracts know they don't have to be serious about the Mandarin. That could change. Come on, the HOS isn't dastardly, she's under-qualified for the job. A strong replacement could do wonders to raise the bar on Mandarin instruction. I see it happening eventually, once unimpressive IB Diploma results light a fire under PA parents.

You are wrong. You'd also have to turn the whole board over. Read their mission statement and founding documents. It isn't all about the Mandarin. It just isn't.

Right you are, and she's wrong. The 50% Mandarin instruction couldn't possibly be improved at YY under a new HOS.

Sure, YY have to turn the whole board over to put more emphasis on good Mandarin instruction.

I suggest an early night for you. mate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for sharing.

Now we get it. You guys don't want to work that hard, so you find a ready excuse in claiming that the path to fluent Mandarin for young Americans would jeopardize high attainment in English and math.

We sympathize, knowing how studying German, French and English coterminously torpedo math learning in Swiss elementary schools, and how studying Swedish, Finnish and English derail math progress for Finnish children. Shame on those European parents, for screwing their kids up like that.

Are you seriously comparing kids in these countries to DC, where the majority of students are black/Latino, come from generations of poverty, and face huge obstacles from basically birth?

Here's the rub, actually. YY detractors keep bringing up what works well for immersion schools in CA, Northern European countries, etc., but that's apples and oranges. YY would've never gotten approved as a charter in the first place if they didn't make a strong argument for first and foremost serving the kids who already form the majority of students in the system. You can't expect them to every change their mission mid-stream. The repeated insistence that they should seems to me a misunderstanding of how public schools work in DC.

As I said a few pages back (I'm the PP with a kid in another language immersion school with lots of native speakers), perhaps outreach to native speakers should continue, but I'm frankly not encouraged about how those efforts will go, given what's been said here re: their skepticism and scoffing about YY not being a school for them.

[Anonymous]

YY has emerged with a study body that's not even 10% FARMs. There are several schools in Upper NW (Eaton, Stoddert, Hearst) with higher percentages of poor minority kids.

In 2017, comparisons between YY and government schools in affluent swathes of Western Europe, along with Singapore, are on the mark.

It's time to get more serious about immersion language studies in DC public, or the DCI IB Diploma program will emerge as just another Banneker or Eastern, programs barely scraping by with average pass point totals in the 20s. IB World Schools fed by partial immersion MS programs can't do the Diploma right without offering Higher Level language studies (which emphasize speaking skills).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for sharing.

Now we get it. You guys don't want to work that hard, so you find a ready excuse in claiming that the path to fluent Mandarin for young Americans would jeopardize high attainment in English and math.

We sympathize, knowing how studying German, French and English coterminously torpedo math learning in Swiss elementary schools, and how studying Swedish, Finnish and English derail math progress for Finnish children. Shame on those European parents, for screwing their kids up like that.

Are you seriously comparing kids in these countries to DC, where the majority of students are black/Latino, come from generations of poverty, and face huge obstacles from basically birth?

Here's the rub, actually. YY detractors keep bringing up what works well for immersion schools in CA, Northern European countries, etc., but that's apples and oranges. YY would've never gotten approved as a charter in the first place if they didn't make a strong argument for first and foremost serving the kids who already form the majority of students in the system. You can't expect them to every change their mission mid-stream. The repeated insistence that they should seems to me a misunderstanding of how public schools work in DC.

As I said a few pages back (I'm the PP with a kid in another language immersion school with lots of native speakers), perhaps outreach to native speakers should continue, but I'm frankly not encouraged about how those efforts will go, given what's been said here re: their skepticism and scoffing about YY not being a school for them.

Actually, the rub is that DC charter supports an immersion program where the demands of studying a difficult Asian language work to scare away almost all of the kids you describe. The approach works so well that it scares away not only low SES black/Latino kids, but the low SES native speakers of Chinese.

Year after year, when DCPC publishes new demographic data for its schools, we see that the percentage of poor kids at YY has dropped a percentage point or two. YY is thought to be in the single digits on FARMs this school year (same category as JKLM and Brent). The immersion Mandarin works a charm as cover for high SES families to avoid low SES families, without the immersion itself being taken very seriously. This just isn't how the DCPC Spanish immersion programs work.

ABCs are comparing kids studying languages in schools in European countries to those at YY because the demographics match without the quality of the immersion program in question beginning to measure up. We can pretend that YY primarily serves the kids its charter describes in the name of being good liberals without that being remotely honest.

What outreach to native speakers? YY did a little eight or ten years ago, mostly in MoCo dim sum places and community centers in Chinatown, in a really clueless way, without disseminating promotional materials in Cantonese/traditional characters, or sending dialect speaking representatives into the local community to spread the word about what the program offers. Admins and PA parents then threw their hands in the air, blaming the local ethnic community for their lack of buy-in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Agree wholeheartedly with the Chinese poster just passing by.

Nobody's criticizing the families whose kids speak lousy Chinese after many years of immersion study. They're criticizing a pedagogical arrangement that's something of a joke, without incentives built in for the school or families to ensure that the kids speak well.

There are plenty of criticisms of YY families on these threads. Including clueless, delusional, elitist, and my favorite, too poor for JKLM-Brent-Maury. I'm sorry you didn't like it when people called out the unsavory truth that many ethnic Chinese are extremely prejudiced against black people, but you are the delusional one if you think it doesn't play a role in YY-Chinese relations.

Yes, they can be extremely prejudiced against black people, my own parents, aunts, uncles and grandparents for example.

You sound AA. So what draws you to Chinese immersion? I study the language of cultures I admire, and steer my children in the same direction.

NP. Yes, there's prejudice against AAs amongst many Chinese immigrants and some ABCs. But that's a separate issue. And it doesn't change the fact that the quality of Mandarin instruction at YY is poor. Language proficiency is language proficiency. After so many years of study and especially considering that many of the students started at a young age, their Mandarin skills should be much better.

This. The fact that some DCI 8th and 9th graders who started in 50% immersion Mandarin at age 4 or 5 still speak like toddlers isn't OK. Don't whitewash it, fix it.