European Expansion: Eye-Opening, Frustrating, and Possibly Not Worth It - Underperforming employee culture

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the top 10% of Americans are better off in the US, but lower and middle class lifestyle is better in Europe.

This post reminded me of this article in the WSJ I read a few weeks ago about how the tech industry is so small in Europe because of risk-averse business culture and complex regulations.

You have to be born European to benefit from the lifestyle. Their immigration rules are super strict.
Where as US you have masters degree you can walk in and buy your house and cars and job hop until you are satisfied with the life style.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

My parents didn’t buy me a car, pay for a wedding or leave an inheritance, but I was at their deathbed and live a comfortable life (probably not successful to someone with a beach house).

My IL kill themselves to provide for their adult children, and we wish they had both taken it easy. If your kids love you, they will want you to have a comfortable life too — my kid was pushing us to retire early and not worry, they will go to community college then transfer to a good school (they have a 1600 SAT so I guess this is feasible? I don’t want that!). But in Europe college is super cheap anyways.

Either one is fine. People have issues when support and expectations don’t align, not bc support is low.

My family gave me bare minimal support, stable home but no money for college. I went to a free state college and fought hard to be in PE and I am def behind compared to my colleagues who went to fancy schools and had right connections, which is all fine except now the parents are constantly comparing me to my 20m/year earning senior partners and complain how come I don’t make that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I see why you are frustrated.
In US, I have had two jobs that cost me more to go to work than to stay home.
I have had jobs where I trained for free for days. I had jobs without getting paid for all hours I worked. I had a job where I had to sleep on hard bench if nobody came to lock up.
I have had jobs where I had to share the money. I've had jobs with no benefits, no breaks in 12-hours, no minimum met, no vacations, and nobody gave a hoot about labor laws. All this in DC.
I've never had a job that offered benefits or even retirement.
I've had jobs where paychecks bounced weekly, coming with $35 fee. At some jobs where I had to pay if customer walked out without paying.
All this wage theft can be seen in my SS statement and will follow me forever.
The crazy part is that somehow somebody convinced me that's how we work in US. Add to that my old school work ethic, strong mental and physical health and this was the result.
Long story short, I made ca average $22k a year for 29 years in DC working my tail off.
What about you all leave Europe. If you are so great, they don't deserve you. And if US was so great, you wouldn't be in such debt, just Europe.
I left my employers behind and started to work for myself the minute I got my papers. I retired soon after.
I don't need my ex employers who still contact me, and you don't need Europe. Let them be. They want to chill.

None of this is legal. If you had an education, you wouldn’t have had to work on long in underpaid, abusive situations.

[Anonymous]

Interesting topic. There is certainly more job security in Western Europe when compared to the US and overall benefits could be greater as well.

Both my wife and I work for companies with international offices and it is always an interesting comparison when talking to our colleagues about these differences.

Wife has family in England and I have family in Slovakia. Both have their pluses and minuses in terms of wanting to relocate there if that was a possibility.

My last company improved their starting vacation to 3 weeks from 2 and you would accrue a day for each service year. Capped at 5 weeks. The also had 6 weeks of parental leave for father's with the birth/adoption of a child which was nice. So, there are some improvements, but we still have a way to go.

Current company still is at a measly 2 weeks paid vacation to start. That's just silly!

[Anonymous]

I am born and raised in the US and actually have citizenship in Europe so does wife and my kids too. No desire to live there, work there or own property there.

I did work for a European company for a decade and flew there all the time to home office. It is very boring.

And guess what I rather have four weeks vacation at a job I love then eight weeks at a job I hate. And they are sooooo slow there. Fast food does not exist. And news and TV so boring. Horrible.

I was in Ireland on a trip a few months ago l only had local TV. Please shoot me it was so bad.

They had a Darts, Soccer and local news and some shows from the 1970s that were like BBC rejects.

[Anonymous]

If you are an underperformer lazy person, Europe is great for you, if you are motivated and want to excel USA is for you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the top 10% of Americans are better off in the US, but lower and middle class lifestyle is better in Europe.

This post reminded me of this article in the WSJ I read a few weeks ago about how the tech industry is so small in Europe because of risk-averse business culture and complex regulations.

You have to be born European to benefit from the lifestyle. Their immigration rules are super strict.
Where as US you have masters degree you can walk in and buy your house and cars and job hop until you are satisfied with the life style.

haha.. no.

[Anonymous]

This is a good article comparing the European and American experience. I suspect many on DCUM are well covered by a few paragraphs.

https://www.thefp.com/p/what-makes-europe-better-than-america?fbclid=IwQ0xDSwK4Nc1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHh5gs-0DVtn5HWfm5AVeZjJg08LWgAZ4jS5I0BoLl2MK5hbxwk9SoIMFC4aD_aem_cWERjnoBTDjiaGw3wJHlxg

“The vast majority of people born and raised in Europe will prefer it there, and the same is true in the U.S., because we are all primed to embody the values we grow up around, and for almost everyone that means you are more comfortable living in the culture that raised you.

“It is elites who culture-shop, picking and choosing what works best for them: Well-to-do Americans can escape the banal landscapes, as I do, through travel, or by living in exclusive U.S. neighborhoods that share European qualities. Likewise, highly motivated Europeans can find a way to move to America, perhaps by working in a large corporation, and thereby gain American levels of wealth.

“It is the working class who are tethered to live within their culture. They’re who this debate should be about, not us cultural chameleons.

“The U.S. model works “better” for the elites doing the debating: It provides the freedom they want, without the burden of contributing to a broader public good.”

[Anonymous]

Eh, I think birth rates are a better proxy for the health of a society as it measures optimism in industrialized societies with choices. The US wins — although not great. Happiness metrics are biased. You can argue life expectancy — but lower life expectancy in the US has little to do with work life balance. In fact, working longer can keep you mentally sharp and alive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Eh, I think birth rates are a better proxy for the health of a society as it measures optimism in industrialized societies with choices. The US wins — although not great. Happiness metrics are biased. You can argue life expectancy — but lower life expectancy in the US has little to do with work life balance. In fact, working longer can keep you mentally sharp and alive.

Except there are plenty of countries where higher birth rates reflect that women have fewer opportunities and narrower horizons generally.

It’s interesting to look at birth rates by socioeconomic status.

“In 2021, the birth rate in the United States was highest in families that had under 10,000 U.S. dollars in income per year, at 62.75 births per 1,000 women. As the income scale increases, the birth rate decreases, with families making 200,000 U.S. dollars or more per year having the second-lowest birth rate, at 47.57 births per 1,000 women.”

https://www.statista.com/statistics/241530/birth-rate-by-family-income-in-the-us/

[Anonymous]

That's why I said industrialized societies (or better said, maybe richer societies). We would need to compare the income dataxbirth rate with European societies. On average, I would think Europe would have higher birth rates based on this relationship, as they are relatively less wealthy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Eh, I think birth rates are a better proxy for the health of a society as it measures optimism in industrialized societies with choices. The US wins — although not great. Happiness metrics are biased. You can argue life expectancy — but lower life expectancy in the US has little to do with work life balance. In fact, working longer can keep you mentally sharp and alive.

I’m not sure why you think birth rate would measure optimism. I’m not convinced.

In addition, I wonder also how strongly birth rate data (ie births per 100,000 of population) is skewed by longevity. I think you probably need to look at fertility rate (ie number of births per woman).

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Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

I am 100% sure you have no European relatives.

Signed,

An actual European

Funny I was on a flight to Europe last year and lady next to me was from Europe on vacation in US. She lived near where some of my first relatives lives She then made a snotty remark you Americans always think cause your family immigrated from Europe years ago that somehow we might know your relatives. I then said well I have 30 first cousins who live near your and 16 Uncles and Aunts. She then went damm I only have 5 first cousins. I have been to Europe 12 times and going in two week. I have worked for European companies around 15 years of career in the US. It is boring over there.

What is this weird insistence with always saying Europe? Surely you must know that there is a world of difference between Norway and Albania. Why act like Europe is a monolith, as if it's the US with a bunch of states?

Europeans do the same thing. If you are on vacation in Europe they call you American rather than a New Yorker or from DC. They lump our 3,000 miles into one category. It is only 1,800 miles from London to Moscow yet 2,700 miles from DC to LA. I live five minutes from Beltway and in conversation the Europeans at work were shocked I could leave my house in my car and be on a non-stop highway and drive 2,700 miles without out a red light or a stop sign all highway . And still be in same country. The length of Ireland is only 302 miles in total. I used to drop my kid off at college 400 miles away. That is a distance that would be crazy in the minds of an Irish Person

Because America is a country. The United States. No German expects you to call them Bavarian or whatever. They can rightfully expect you to call them American. Can you not see the difference? Europe has 50 some countries. The US IS a country.

At least you called us Americans. There’s a big movement to make it so we can’t call ourselves Americans. In South America they consider both north and South America to be one continent and they call themselves Americans. Not sure what we’re supposed to call ourselves- United Statesers?

People are using Europe because there are a lot of similarities with EU countries. Obviously we all realize they are separate countries.

The people from South America and Central America are correct, they are Americans. When I lived in Spain I never referred to myself as an American, I referred to myself as an "estadounidense." "America" is not a country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am born and raised in the US and actually have citizenship in Europe so does wife and my kids too. No desire to live there, work there or own property there.

I did work for a European company for a decade and flew there all the time to home office. It is very boring.

And guess what I rather have four weeks vacation at a job I love then eight weeks at a job I hate. And they are sooooo slow there. Fast food does not exist. And news and TV so boring. Horrible.

I was in Ireland on a trip a few months ago l only had local TV. Please shoot me it was so bad.

They had a Darts, Soccer and local news and some shows from the 1970s that were like BBC rejects.

Your gripe is they have no fast food? For many people, that's a plus. You're complaining about their news? Not enough school shootings or political turbulence? I think having boring news is actually a huge plus.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Work isn’t the most important thing in life. If you don’t know that now, you’ll likely realize it on your deathbed.

+1.

European work culture has it right.

Not if you want to actually earn money.

Incorrect. My entire family is in Europe and they make really good money. My H works for an international company and the European are getting paid very well. Americans are buried in debt, the net worth here is actually pretty low.

Exactly. Most Americans have been sold this BS that you have to hustle non-stop in order to make money because that's the only thing that matters in life. Europeans in general have a much better sense of balance and their lives on average are much better than those living in 4000 sq ft houses in the US

If you say so. I personally don’t want to work 5 fewer hours a week so I can cram my entire family into a tiny house. Make fun of large American homes all you want, but they are way more comfortable, and pretty much every European would buy a larger home if they could afford it.

But ask them if they'd give up their work life balance for that bigger paycheck and house, and most would say no. Look at the happiest countries in the world. US doesn't even break the T20. Countries with generous leave make the Top20.

Eh those studies are biased and heavily dependent on how people consider happiness and what their standard is.

so, Americans have more sh&+ but they are still unhappy, work too much, and complain a lot compared to those other countries. Got it.

Don't forget fat. And all that sh* is poor quality. Working 10 hours, commuting 2 more so you can buy polyester at Macy's and overpriced diabetes medication. Don't get me started on the quality of the housing.

Have you even known any Europeans personally? Because I have and I don’t get the impression their lifestyle is much, if at all, better. I’ll give you they eat healthier food and there are fewer overweight people, but I myself am not friends with anyone who is grossly overweight and most people I know eat a healthy diet.

My European friends struggle with the same things as Americans and appear to have a lot less disposable income. What stands out the most is that two white collar professionals have a very limited income that doesn’t allow for outsourcing of any kind. So while they may have an extra 2 weeks of vacation than I do, they can’t afford to go out to dinner as a family, spend their extra time cleaning their house, and vacation by traveling to less expensive locations like Spain. My lifestyle looks opulent compared to theirs and almost embarrassing when they ask me questions about it.

It’s also anecdotal but my European friends appear to have a lot less flexibility at work. I get the impression it’s much more clock in/out mentality and the need to meet every rule, but not a common sense approach to work.

A lot of the advantages they have you could also apply here. You could live in a 1,100 square foot home and commute to work via bus or bike. You could shop at farmers markets and buy less stuff. Here you have the choice.

You have no idea what you’re talking about. I am European who grew up there and whose sister still lives in Italy. My sister and her husband work and make a lot less than I do, but they take a couple of vacations every year, have a house, two cars. They also have an amazing health system, much better food, they come home for a couple of hours every day for lunch, spend a lot more time with their child.

No, they don’t hire someone to clean their house, or to mow their lawn, but it’s hardly a justification for the hamper wheel we have here. I lived and worked in both, you make more money here but at a great cost.

Also lived in Western Europe (and at one point Eastern). Agree with this sentiment completely.

The capitalist mindset is very focused on false “choice,” IMHO. And it’s not made anyone any happier or healthier in this country.

But downside they are stealing from their children and grandchildren to fund the lifestyle. Meaning my old boss in Germany with Free Healthcare, a great pension from Work, beach house, an amazing rent controlled house has great cash flow but nearly all his assets die with him.

The Pension stops, rent control apt stops, his beach house is actually a family house owned by MIL which is communal so cant pass to his kid. He only had one kid.

In the US He would own at time of death, his own primary home mortgage free, his beach house mortgage free, had a large amount of 401k/IRA/Savings Account money save due to higher income. Maybe 2-4 cars or boat. The US is focused on Assets. Plus in Europe next to US the percentage of people who own stocks and real estate is way less. The 16 years has been a massive run up in Real Estate and Stock Prices. My relatives in Europe for instance missed the boat on that as well did a lot of my older european co-workers.

A plan old mid level VP in a Bank in US in DC area is retiring at 65 with two million in 401k/IRAs and a 1.5 million dollar home paid off. That's before any other savings. That 3.5 million would be shocking to a European for a bank VP to have. And if that bank VP dropped dead day one of retirement his wife and kids get it. My old boss with his rental and defined pension lives the high life but he is really passing on nothing much to next generation.

So we should all work like machines to plan for our deaths?

yes in fact. My parents did, they worked like dogs in Europe to get to the USA to have a better life for their kids. They would have been better off staying in long run for themselves. But they got here separately, met and raised 4 kids who all have grad degrees, who all got married, had kids and all bought houses and putting all the kids through college. I am only first generation American but I expect by time my kids have kids they will be summering in Hamptons, Skiing in Aspen, Going to Ivy League schools. Maybe be President of the United States or win American Idol or cure cancer who knows. But if my parents never left their country and met there and had us four kids would have set us back several generations.

Which of the 50+ countries did they come from? That makes a huge difference on whether or not they would have been better off.

Well I live in a two million dollar home and have a beach house and new cars in the driveway. Highly doubt my homeless 6th grade educated parents could have got me very far had they stayed in Europe. I say homeless as one was one of eight the other was one of five. Only the oldest son inherits house and rest must get out. My Mom got kicked out of home at 12. My Dad at 14. In the US got HS degrees at night, bought a house, raised four kids how is that possible in Europe it is not.

Instead they get cheap medical, can go on the dole I guess and sit in a pub drinking pints and smoking and dying young like all my uncles did.

It’s commendable that your parents and family have done so well in the US. But do you understand that not everybody wants to summer in the Hamptons or ski in Aspen? The fact that some people may be happier with less material wealth does not negate the fact that you are very happy with what you have. In fact, there are probably people on both sides of the Atlantic who would be happier if they could swap lives with each other. Nothing wrong with that.

It is irrelevant parents happiness once you marry and have kids. Don't marry or have kids if you want to lay around all day and relax. My one uncle was a lazy bone and he just raised very bitter kids who had to pay their own way through college, left them a near worthless run down shack upon death. He should have not had kids. He put his kids behind a generation or two. My other Uncle worked hard once he had kids, sent them to Law School, Medical School etc set them up for success in life. He was buying stocks and reading Wall Street Journal back in 1960s and 1970s while my other uncle was laying on sofa.

Watch the show Sirens btw and it boils down in life the only thing that matters is will your kids be at your deathbed and did you set your kids and grandkids up for success in life. Nothing else matters. Most of my European relatives have not done that. They are more interested in having a small amount of kids and retiring earlier and could care less about paying for college, buying the kid a car, paying for wedding, leaving an inheritance. Sets kids up for a harder life just so Daddy can drink beers in the pub every night.

I am 100% sure you have no European relatives.

Signed,

An actual European

Funny I was on a flight to Europe last year and lady next to me was from Europe on vacation in US. She lived near where some of my first relatives lives She then made a snotty remark you Americans always think cause your family immigrated from Europe years ago that somehow we might know your relatives. I then said well I have 30 first cousins who live near your and 16 Uncles and Aunts. She then went damm I only have 5 first cousins. I have been to Europe 12 times and going in two week. I have worked for European companies around 15 years of career in the US. It is boring over there.

What is this weird insistence with always saying Europe? Surely you must know that there is a world of difference between Norway and Albania. Why act like Europe is a monolith, as if it's the US with a bunch of states?

Europeans do the same thing. If you are on vacation in Europe they call you American rather than a New Yorker or from DC. They lump our 3,000 miles into one category. It is only 1,800 miles from London to Moscow yet 2,700 miles from DC to LA. I live five minutes from Beltway and in conversation the Europeans at work were shocked I could leave my house in my car and be on a non-stop highway and drive 2,700 miles without out a red light or a stop sign all highway . And still be in same country. The length of Ireland is only 302 miles in total. I used to drop my kid off at college 400 miles away. That is a distance that would be crazy in the minds of an Irish Person

Because America is a country. The United States. No German expects you to call them Bavarian or whatever. They can rightfully expect you to call them American. Can you not see the difference? Europe has 50 some countries. The US IS a country.

At least you called us Americans. There’s a big movement to make it so we can’t call ourselves Americans. In South America they consider both north and South America to be one continent and they call themselves Americans. Not sure what we’re supposed to call ourselves- United Statesers?

People are using Europe because there are a lot of similarities with EU countries. Obviously we all realize they are separate countries.

The people from South America and Central America are correct, they are Americans. When I lived in Spain I never referred to myself as an American, I referred to myself as an "estadounidense." "America" is not a country.

Get over yourself. No other country in the world has “America” in its name. No one is confused by people saying “American” to mean from the USA.