TJ results out

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, they changes their admissions. They should also change their expectations and requirements. It's just unfair to expect the same from kids finishing Alg 1 and kids finishing Alg 2.

No, kids finishing Algebra 1 in 8th grade should be in a position to take Calculus at their base school. It is not a requirement but it is a potential end point for a kid.

Base school progression

8th grade Algebra 1
9th grade Geometry
10 grade Algebra 2
11 grade Pre Calculus
12 Grade Calculus

The compressed math at TJ means that those same kids should be in a position to take Calculus earlier at TJ. If I am understanding correctly Geometry and Algebra 2 are both semester long classes.

If you don't think your child is capable of taking Calculus, they don't belong at TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, they changes their admissions. They should also change their expectations and requirements. It's just unfair to expect the same from kids finishing Alg 1 and kids finishing Alg 2.

No, kids finishing Algebra 1 in 8th grade should be in a position to take Calculus at their base school. It is not a requirement but it is a potential end point for a kid.

Base school progression

8th grade Algebra 1
9th grade Geometry
10 grade Algebra 2
11 grade Pre Calculus
12 Grade Calculus

The compressed math at TJ means that those same kids should be in a position to take Calculus earlier at TJ. If I am understanding correctly Geometry and Algebra 2 are both semester long classes.

Nope, the math progression at TJ also leads to calculus in 12th, but that's only if there's no need for the student to take the optional support courses (2.5 or 6)

https://tjhsst.fcps.edu/node/3332

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, TJ is a public HS not an elite college. The current system basically setups the non-AAP and Alp 1 students to fail. Why take them in and keep them at the bottom?

TJ is an elite HS, that is the point of the Governor's Schools. They are meant to support gifted kids in specific academic fields.

I think that kids should have to have completed Geometry to apply to TJ. I suspect that FCPS selected Algebra 1 because there would not be enough Black and Hispanic kids taking Geometry in 8th grade to be considered and the NAACP was threatening a law suit over the lack of Black students at TJ.

TJ was developed for a very specific reason and the classes and program. There are plenty of Black and Hispanic kids who are capable of attending and succeeding at TJ. Some of those kids attend schools that have less of a track record applying to and being accepted into TJ. I have not problem with the shift to guaranteeing seats for a percentage of kids at every MS that can send kids to TJ. That solves the problem of most of the kids coming from 3-5 MS. It opens up opportunities for kids who are smart and capable of succeeding at TJ who have not had the same level of enrichment at home or the same peer group at school. I fully believe that those kids can handle TJ but they have to want to be there.

Stop lowering the bar for capable kids. You are making excuses when there is no need for excuses. I am sure that there are kids who arrive from every MS who are shocked by the expectations at TJ. Kids left for their base school before the admissions change. The answer is not to change the expectations of the school but to offer supports so that the kids have a chance to succeed and thrive. It sounds like TJ is doing just that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 8th grader is in Algebra 1 and thinks Math would be tough at TJ, especially since calculus is required. How to convince them to accept the offer? Is it that difficult from base school?

If you want to convince them, you could point out that they would likely take calculus at their base school. If you have the money, you could agree to pay for tutoring/afterschooling in math.

Don't FCPS base schools allow graduation with just Algebra 2? No need for calculus at base school, but TJ requires it?

TJ is a magnate school with different expectations. When you apply to TJ, you apply understanding that you will be taking math and science classes that are more intense and involved. A look at the math catalog shows that the math class are mainly one semester long and are not labeled Geometry, Algebra 2, and the like. Talking to the students at TJ points to math classes that are compacted and intense.

If you want to take the same classes you would take at yoru base school, don't apply to TJ, go to your base school. If you want to be challenged in math and science, apply for TJ knowing that the standards are different.

You would not apply to attend MIT and get there and go "But why do I have to take different classes that are harder then UVA?" Same for TJ. You apply for TJ to attend TJ with compacted math, Calculus as a bse requirement for graduation, and more challenging science offerings.

But, they changes their admissions. They should also change their expectations and requirements. It's just unfair to expect the same from kids finishing Alg 1 and kids finishing Alg 2.

No, kids finishing Algebra 1 in 8th grade should be in a position to take Calculus at their base school. It is not a requirement but it is a potential end point for a kid.

Base school progression

8th grade Algebra 1
9th grade Geometry
10 grade Algebra 2
11 grade Pre Calculus
12 Grade Calculus

The compressed math at TJ means that those same kids should be in a position to take Calculus earlier at TJ. If I am understanding correctly Geometry and Algebra 2 are both semester long classes.

If you don't think your child is capable of taking Calculus, they don't belong at TJ.

Geometry is TJ Math1&2 year long, Algebra 2 is squeezed into Math 3 semester long, Precalculus is Math 4&5 year long. for those not yet ready for calculus AB, Math 6 is semester long. Calc AB is year long, and this is the minimum math needed for graduation.

[Anonymous]

There is a middle ground between requiring 8th grade geometry to apply to TJ and not counting math level at all. Kids should be allowed to apply to TJ with 8th grade Algebra, but only being in Algebra I should be a negative in the application.

[Anonymous]

https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028

[Anonymous]

Looks like it was a good year to get free lunches and speak another language. experience factor points unite!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a middle ground between requiring 8th grade geometry to apply to TJ and not counting math level at all. Kids should be allowed to apply to TJ with 8th grade Algebra, but only being in Algebra I should be a negative in the application.

What are the chances of 8th grade algebra 1 student being in the top half of the TJ class?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean when you say top students? All As or something else.

Someone posted on here there were rejections of kids who qualified for USAJMO in 7th grade. This is a contest that takes around the top 100 math students in the country. And that is among 10th graders and below.
7th or 8th grader to make this in Virginia is rare, but they couldn't find room in a class of 500. They also reject5 winners of MathCounts, Science Olympiad, and other contests.
Really anyone who qualifies for the earlier round AIME should be accepted.

Followup- I described the top students statewide who were getting rejected. But TJ has a minimum quota per school and selects from within a school first. By top students I am looking at top MathCounts students who qualify for state, vs your all A students that are just OK at math, taking geometry or maybe algebra 1. Last year- the school had students who didn't accept four algebra 2 kids, one qualified for MathCounts nationals, another was in top 12 at MathCounts State, another was on a top team at state MathCounts and won awards in computer programming, another won lots of awards in chess rated 2000+. The students who were accepted probably had all As but were not known as standout students. One was plausible- an Algebra 2 student who was solid on the MathCounts team but not winning at the chapter level. Almost all accepted were Asian so it not a racial factor as many are suggesting.

The proposal I've had for some time to enhance the present admissions process is to create a standardized teacher recommendation form asking teachers to evaluate applicants against students in their own class.

So essentially, design a form that lets teachers rate the students across a broad spectrum of metrics:
- command of the material
- academic integrity
- commitment to learning for its own sake
- contributions to the overall class environment
- intellectual curiosity in STEM
-
- etc.

... using a rating scale including "Poor", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Superior", and "One of the best I've seen". But the key is that the teacher should be evaluating the students more or less against each other, so that when an application evaluator is reviewing a batch from, say, a Geometry teacher at Carson, they should be seeing ratings across the spectrum. If that teacher is rating every student as "Superior" or higher, it becomes clear that that teacher's evaluations aren't to be taken seriously.

A recommendation form of this type should take no more than 5 minutes to fill out at most. I'd also invite the opportunity for each teacher recommender to select a maximum of 3-5 students to write more expansively about if they so chose - whether to encourage the admissions personnel to admit the student or, perhaps equally importantly, to let them know to avoid a student who, for example, cheated on an assignment or would otherwise contribute negatively to the TJ environment.

PP, would you agree that a process like the above would enhance the likelihood that the right 45 students or so were selected from places like Carson, Longfellow, Rocky Run, etc?

Teachers would get sued.

I see the value of teacher recommendation, but it cannot be the only thing - too subjective.

Selection processes are and must be subjective. An objective selection process incentivizes parents to narrowly tailor their child's middle school experience to meet the standard and results in homogeneity among the selected population - the former is destructive for kids, and the latter is terrible for school environments.

Parents in this area need to stop wanting an explicit road map for how to get their child into TJ. Such a road map was provided with the old process, and the result was devastating for the health of high-achieving children in Northern Virginia.

It can be a combination. Why not allow essays and a test and experience factors?

Honestly, I think this can work, as long as a few things are the case:

1) The process MUST remain subjective and holistic in nature;
2) The exam, in whatever form it takes, must be one of many factors that is considered and cannot be an absolute gatekeeper in the way that it was with the previous process (i.e. brilliant kids who are poor test-takers must still have a way to get in);
3) The exam scores cannot be made publicly available in any way, so that folks operating in bad faith cannot FOIA the results and use them as evidence to suggest that the standards for one racial group to be admitted are different from another;
4) The exam scores are contextualized against the rest of the academic profile of the student (i.e. a theoretical 90 from a kid in Alg1 would be much more impressive than a 92 from a kid in Alg2).

Subjectivity and holistic factors always favor wealthier students.
If the standards for one racial group is in fact higher than others (as was shown in the harvard lawsuit), why would you want to facilitate obscuring that sort of racial discrimination?
Stop it.
Be better.
Racism against asians should be no more acceptable than racism against any other group.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean when you say top students? All As or something else.

Someone posted on here there were rejections of kids who qualified for USAJMO in 7th grade. This is a contest that takes around the top 100 math students in the country. And that is among 10th graders and below.
7th or 8th grader to make this in Virginia is rare, but they couldn't find room in a class of 500. They also reject5 winners of MathCounts, Science Olympiad, and other contests.
Really anyone who qualifies for the earlier round AIME should be accepted.

Followup- I described the top students statewide who were getting rejected. But TJ has a minimum quota per school and selects from within a school first. By top students I am looking at top MathCounts students who qualify for state, vs your all A students that are just OK at math, taking geometry or maybe algebra 1. Last year- the school had students who didn't accept four algebra 2 kids, one qualified for MathCounts nationals, another was in top 12 at MathCounts State, another was on a top team at state MathCounts and won awards in computer programming, another won lots of awards in chess rated 2000+. The students who were accepted probably had all As but were not known as standout students. One was plausible- an Algebra 2 student who was solid on the MathCounts team but not winning at the chapter level. Almost all accepted were Asian so it not a racial factor as many are suggesting.

The proposal I've had for some time to enhance the present admissions process is to create a standardized teacher recommendation form asking teachers to evaluate applicants against students in their own class.

So essentially, design a form that lets teachers rate the students across a broad spectrum of metrics:
- command of the material
- academic integrity
- commitment to learning for its own sake
- contributions to the overall class environment
- intellectual curiosity in STEM
-
- etc.

... using a rating scale including "Poor", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Superior", and "One of the best I've seen". But the key is that the teacher should be evaluating the students more or less against each other, so that when an application evaluator is reviewing a batch from, say, a Geometry teacher at Carson, they should be seeing ratings across the spectrum. If that teacher is rating every student as "Superior" or higher, it becomes clear that that teacher's evaluations aren't to be taken seriously.

A recommendation form of this type should take no more than 5 minutes to fill out at most. I'd also invite the opportunity for each teacher recommender to select a maximum of 3-5 students to write more expansively about if they so chose - whether to encourage the admissions personnel to admit the student or, perhaps equally importantly, to let them know to avoid a student who, for example, cheated on an assignment or would otherwise contribute negatively to the TJ environment.

PP, would you agree that a process like the above would enhance the likelihood that the right 45 students or so were selected from places like Carson, Longfellow, Rocky Run, etc?

NO. What if the teacher does not like a child even if that child is exceptional. I rather have my kids taking tests, but no to any teacher's opinion!

Why doesn't the teacher like your child? And do you honestly think that teachers have an agenda to punish children that they just "don't like"?

Well, it's hard to imagine that the anti-asian sentiment displayed by former teachers during the hearings popped into existence only after retirement.
There is a real resentment by some teachers in this area because asians are crowding out white kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean when you say top students? All As or something else.

Someone posted on here there were rejections of kids who qualified for USAJMO in 7th grade. This is a contest that takes around the top 100 math students in the country. And that is among 10th graders and below.
7th or 8th grader to make this in Virginia is rare, but they couldn't find room in a class of 500. They also reject5 winners of MathCounts, Science Olympiad, and other contests.
Really anyone who qualifies for the earlier round AIME should be accepted.

Followup- I described the top students statewide who were getting rejected. But TJ has a minimum quota per school and selects from within a school first. By top students I am looking at top MathCounts students who qualify for state, vs your all A students that are just OK at math, taking geometry or maybe algebra 1. Last year- the school had students who didn't accept four algebra 2 kids, one qualified for MathCounts nationals, another was in top 12 at MathCounts State, another was on a top team at state MathCounts and won awards in computer programming, another won lots of awards in chess rated 2000+. The students who were accepted probably had all As but were not known as standout students. One was plausible- an Algebra 2 student who was solid on the MathCounts team but not winning at the chapter level. Almost all accepted were Asian so it not a racial factor as many are suggesting.

The proposal I've had for some time to enhance the present admissions process is to create a standardized teacher recommendation form asking teachers to evaluate applicants against students in their own class.

So essentially, design a form that lets teachers rate the students across a broad spectrum of metrics:
- command of the material
- academic integrity
- commitment to learning for its own sake
- contributions to the overall class environment
- intellectual curiosity in STEM
-
- etc.

... using a rating scale including "Poor", "Below Average", "Average", "Above Average", "Superior", and "One of the best I've seen". But the key is that the teacher should be evaluating the students more or less against each other, so that when an application evaluator is reviewing a batch from, say, a Geometry teacher at Carson, they should be seeing ratings across the spectrum. If that teacher is rating every student as "Superior" or higher, it becomes clear that that teacher's evaluations aren't to be taken seriously.

A recommendation form of this type should take no more than 5 minutes to fill out at most. I'd also invite the opportunity for each teacher recommender to select a maximum of 3-5 students to write more expansively about if they so chose - whether to encourage the admissions personnel to admit the student or, perhaps equally importantly, to let them know to avoid a student who, for example, cheated on an assignment or would otherwise contribute negatively to the TJ environment.

PP, would you agree that a process like the above would enhance the likelihood that the right 45 students or so were selected from places like Carson, Longfellow, Rocky Run, etc?

NO. What if the teacher does not like a child even if that child is exceptional. I rather have my kids taking tests, but no to any teacher's opinion!

Why doesn't the teacher like your child? And do you honestly think that teachers have an agenda to punish children that they just "don't like"?

Well, it's hard to imagine that the anti-asian sentiment displayed by former teachers during the hearings popped into existence only after retirement.
There is a real resentment by some teachers in this area because asians are crowding out white kids.

What in the world are you talking about re: teachers at hearings?

[Anonymous]

There are teachers with resentment over Asians doing well. Also they object to the parents pushing kids into classes they are not ready for.

[Anonymous]

TJ is not the only Governor's school in the Commonwealth. It should align similar to the others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fcps.edu/news/offers-extended-thomas-jefferson-high-school-science-and-technology-class-2028

Longfellow actually have the highest acceptance…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is a middle ground between requiring 8th grade geometry to apply to TJ and not counting math level at all. Kids should be allowed to apply to TJ with 8th grade Algebra, but only being in Algebra I should be a negative in the application.

Why?