Why is KIPP doing so badly now?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are really not allowed to suspend and expel students anymore baring extreme circumstances. If a student was throwing things in the classroom, aggressively menacing teachers and other students, yelling vulgarities and threats, a school could physically remove the student from class and put them in a room away from other students. You can't do that anymore and students realize it.

When schools can no longer effectively discipline students then chaos reigns.

Whatever are you talking about? KIPP has twice as many out of school suspensions across its schools as the DC average and four times as many expulsions. Schools are still suspending and expelling. KIPP Legacy suspended 29% of students and expelled 2%. KIPP Valor suspended over 30%. KIPP Northeast 28%.

I think PP is talking about KIPP now relative to KIPP in the past. But I don't know if that data is publicly available. And of course, a day long in-school suspension is one thing, a week or two out of school is quite another.

I also think that now that the DC student population may decline, KIPP can't afford to expel or even long-term suspend a lot of kids of it makes them leave the school.

But KIPP is suspending out of school and expelling. In-school is reported separately. OSSE has data publicly available going back more than a decade. KIPP's out of school suspension and expulsion rates are higher for the last period reported (24-25) than they were pre-pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, Matt has decided to use AI to analyze data and write these articles on education. I'm very skeptical that whatever AI tool he used even pulled the data correctly, much less accurately captured trends.

He doesn't have a detailed enough understanding of the DC landscape to be writing about it. For example, one huge factor with Chisholm is becoming a dual language school, but that's not mentioned.

As for KIPP, I think their low performance is being lost in the shuffle because the PCSB has bigger fires to put out, serious egg on its face after Eagle, and had a lot of turnover on the PCSB.

Is Chisholm actually seeing a demographic shift after the change to immersion? I’ve been curious about that but have no information.

Where does he mention Chisholm? And actually Chisholm became only dual language much more recently than 2019 -- I think most of the gentrification the later commentator correctly notes is the general gentrification of the neighborhood and DCPS Hill ESes and less dual-language specific, though I do think that will accelerate the trend by attracting UMC families and driving many Potomac Gardens families to Payne.

But also... I think everything he's saying about KIPP is correct. Even if he's using AI tools, I don't see any obvious issues/can't imagine the overall trend isn't correct.

Full immersion started being phased in SY23-24.

In the two years from SY22-23 to SY24-25, the white population went from 19% to 23%, the black population went from 62% to 55%, latino population from 14% to 16%, and the at risk population dropped from 42% to 28%. Boundary participation rate went from 49% to 50%.

Changes above are more stark for PK. White population went from 34% to 35%, black population went from 47% to 33%, and latino population from 14% to 22%.

Definitely some gentrification happening over time but I think also Potomac Gardens families opting out of immersion model given the slower, steadier rate of white population increase over time and the much more rapid black and at risk population decrease following the move to full immersion.

I think it is a reach to say that the changes in the upper grades have much of anything to do with dual language given that nothing in the upper grades changed. At most, we'd be talking about some limited knock on effect for siblings. I think drop in the Black population and rise in the Latino population in ECE is likely directly attributable to model change, but actually it had virtually no effect on the white population in ECE (a smaller change there than in the school overall, in fact, further suggesting that the change in white population is more gentrification of the neighborhood related).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, Matt has decided to use AI to analyze data and write these articles on education. I'm very skeptical that whatever AI tool he used even pulled the data correctly, much less accurately captured trends.

He doesn't have a detailed enough understanding of the DC landscape to be writing about it. For example, one huge factor with Chisholm is becoming a dual language school, but that's not mentioned.

As for KIPP, I think their low performance is being lost in the shuffle because the PCSB has bigger fires to put out, serious egg on its face after Eagle, and had a lot of turnover on the PCSB.

Is Chisholm actually seeing a demographic shift after the change to immersion? I’ve been curious about that but have no information.

Where does he mention Chisholm? And actually Chisholm became only dual language much more recently than 2019 -- I think most of the gentrification the later commentator correctly notes is the general gentrification of the neighborhood and DCPS Hill ESes and less dual-language specific, though I do think that will accelerate the trend by attracting UMC families and driving many Potomac Gardens families to Payne.

But also... I think everything he's saying about KIPP is correct. Even if he's using AI tools, I don't see any obvious issues/can't imagine the overall trend isn't correct.

Full immersion started being phased in SY23-24.

In the two years from SY22-23 to SY24-25, the white population went from 19% to 23%, the black population went from 62% to 55%, latino population from 14% to 16%, and the at risk population dropped from 42% to 28%. Boundary participation rate went from 49% to 50%.

Changes above are more stark for PK. White population went from 34% to 35%, black population went from 47% to 33%, and latino population from 14% to 22%.

Definitely some gentrification happening over time but I think also Potomac Gardens families opting out of immersion model given the slower, steadier rate of white population increase over time and the much more rapid black and at risk population decrease following the move to full immersion.

I think it is a reach to say that the changes in the upper grades have much of anything to do with dual language given that nothing in the upper grades changed. At most, we'd be talking about some limited knock on effect for siblings. I think drop in the Black population and rise in the Latino population in ECE is likely directly attributable to model change, but actually it had virtually no effect on the white population in ECE (a smaller change there than in the school overall, in fact, further suggesting that the change in white population is more gentrification of the neighborhood related).

A 14 percentage point drop in the at risk population over two years is not just garden variety gentrification. Especially not in a neighborhood with basically no new development and a giant housing project.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I read this Matty Iglesias piece and raises some really tough questions for KIPP schools in DC, many of which were doing pretty well and then fell off a cliff during and after Covid. A change in leadership was part of it, but is something else going on there? I know this forum does not skew toward KIPP kids at all, but wondering if other parents/educators have insights as it is quite striking.

https://dclocal.substack.com/p/the-stunning-collapse-of-kipp-dc

"Before the pandemic, KIPP DC was a middle-of-the-pack charter network. Its 11 campuses tested about 2,900 students, making it by far the largest charter operator in the District. Its proficiency rates — 37 percent in ELA, 40 percent in math — were roughly in line with the charter sector average and not far from DCPS. Some individual campuses, like Promise Academy (57 percent ELA, 78 percent math) and KEY Academy (46 percent ELA), were doing well. It was a functioning, if unremarkable, school network. That network no longer exists, at least not in any recognizable form. KIPP DC’s ELA proficiency has fallen to 18.4 percent. Its math proficiency has fallen to 14.5 percent. Every single one of the ten campuses that can be compared across time declined. The worst-hit campus, Heights Academy, went from 44 percent ELA proficiency to 10 percent, and from 66 percent math proficiency to 11 percent. This isn’t a dip. It’s a collapse — and three years into post-COVID testing, there is essentially no sign of recovery."

Meanwhile, PCSB won’t let BASIS open a K-4 in DC even though more than 10% of the top 100 ranked public schools in the United States are in the BASIS network….

Smh

BASIS has yet to find a building, since they're only willing to locate in certain high-income areas. So wah.

People actually want a little kid BASIS?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, Matt has decided to use AI to analyze data and write these articles on education. I'm very skeptical that whatever AI tool he used even pulled the data correctly, much less accurately captured trends.

The Washington Post ran a (much nicer) story a couple of months ago but their charts showed the same thing -- a huge drop in proficiency for KIPP that remained low even though both DCPS and the charter sector rebounded. Matt just provided more detail for each KIPP school. The data seems to match up with the Washington Post and with the more detailed data available in the OSSE data files.

Sad to see given how big they are and given the needs of the kids they serve.

Fair. But I saw multiple, obvious errors in the other post he wrote about DCPS.

Can you share the errors you saw? I am very curious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think without the ability to expel, KIPP struggles, and the city has been a lot stricter on that in recent years. Again, something a real journalist would be aware of.

As an education reporter for an actual newspaper, I am loving comments like this.

No shade on Iglesias. I don’t know him personally but my sense is he’s probably trying to fill a coverage gap and from what I can tell he’s clear in explaining that he’s not a traditional journalist.

But commentary and analysis like his - while worthwhile its own reasons - isn’t the same as an article from a standards based news organization that incorporates the broader context, as PP rightly notes.

I’m glad at least some people can discern a difference, especially given what’s happening in my profession these days. Appreciate you, PP!

Sorry to hijack the thread with something off topic. Go back to KIPP!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, Matt has decided to use AI to analyze data and write these articles on education. I'm very skeptical that whatever AI tool he used even pulled the data correctly, much less accurately captured trends.

The Washington Post ran a (much nicer) story a couple of months ago but their charts showed the same thing -- a huge drop in proficiency for KIPP that remained low even though both DCPS and the charter sector rebounded. Matt just provided more detail for each KIPP school. The data seems to match up with the Washington Post and with the more detailed data available in the OSSE data files.

Sad to see given how big they are and given the needs of the kids they serve.

Fair. But I saw multiple, obvious errors in the other post he wrote about DCPS.

Most likely a residual brain injury from the time Yggie got knockout gamed and lied about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think without the ability to expel, KIPP struggles, and the city has been a lot stricter on that in recent years. Again, something a real journalist would be aware of.

As an education reporter for an actual newspaper, I am loving comments like this.

No shade on Iglesias. I don’t know him personally but my sense is he’s probably trying to fill a coverage gap and from what I can tell he’s clear in explaining that he’s not a traditional journalist.

But commentary and analysis like his - while worthwhile its own reasons - isn’t the same as an article from a standards based news organization that incorporates the broader context, as PP rightly notes.

I’m glad at least some people can discern a difference, especially given what’s happening in my profession these days. Appreciate you, PP!

Sorry to hijack the thread with something off topic. Go back to KIPP!

There really is a vacuum. The Post covers so little for local education, and hates saying anything negative about charters unless the problem is egregious and everyone already knows. I'm sure the Post will have less in the future. Martin Austermuhle was good at it but covers a lot of other issues too. So it's really just DCUM and blogs and primary sources.

I'm really not sure what the deal is with KIPP though. Super interesting question. These bigger-picture issues are taking a back seat to the crises of Eagle and other closures for now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think without the ability to expel, KIPP struggles, and the city has been a lot stricter on that in recent years. Again, something a real journalist would be aware of.

As an education reporter for an actual newspaper, I am loving comments like this.

No shade on Iglesias. I don’t know him personally but my sense is he’s probably trying to fill a coverage gap and from what I can tell he’s clear in explaining that he’s not a traditional journalist.

But commentary and analysis like his - while worthwhile its own reasons - isn’t the same as an article from a standards based news organization that incorporates the broader context, as PP rightly notes.

I’m glad at least some people can discern a difference, especially given what’s happening in my profession these days. Appreciate you, PP!

Sorry to hijack the thread with something off topic. Go back to KIPP!

Are you really a journalist? He's one of the most successful journalists in the country with stints at The Atlantic, Slate, and a founder of Vox. He sucks and is wrong all the time, but to act like you working for some backwater newspaper compares is hilarious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think without the ability to expel, KIPP struggles, and the city has been a lot stricter on that in recent years. Again, something a real journalist would be aware of.

As an education reporter for an actual newspaper, I am loving comments like this.

No shade on Iglesias. I don’t know him personally but my sense is he’s probably trying to fill a coverage gap and from what I can tell he’s clear in explaining that he’s not a traditional journalist.

But commentary and analysis like his - while worthwhile its own reasons - isn’t the same as an article from a standards based news organization that incorporates the broader context, as PP rightly notes.

I’m glad at least some people can discern a difference, especially given what’s happening in my profession these days. Appreciate you, PP!

Sorry to hijack the thread with something off topic. Go back to KIPP!

Are you really a journalist? He's one of the most successful journalists in the country with stints at The Atlantic, Slate, and a founder of Vox. He sucks and is wrong all the time, but to act like you working for some backwater newspaper compares is hilarious.

It's more like, he didn't bring his journalist self to this particular article. It's clearly just slapped together from behind-the-laptop analysis with no real research and not much background understanding of the subject matter. Mistakes like not knowing that Chisholm is newly Dual Language are what happens when someone doesn't make an effort to learn background.

[Anonymous]

Where exactly is this real education journalism in DC? The coverage I've read from the Post has ranged from bad to fine, but I've never read anything that made me think, wow, these journalists are really digging deep here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Where exactly is this real education journalism in DC? The coverage I've read from the Post has ranged from bad to fine, but I've never read anything that made me think, wow, these journalists are really digging deep here.

That's the sad part. There's Valerie Jablow who is super duper knowledgeable but can't edit, so her writing and testimony is hard to follow. But she was spot on about what a racket Eagle was, and I respect that!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For some reason, Matt has decided to use AI to analyze data and write these articles on education. I'm very skeptical that whatever AI tool he used even pulled the data correctly, much less accurately captured trends.

He doesn't have a detailed enough understanding of the DC landscape to be writing about it. For example, one huge factor with Chisholm is becoming a dual language school, but that's not mentioned.

As for KIPP, I think their low performance is being lost in the shuffle because the PCSB has bigger fires to put out, serious egg on its face after Eagle, and had a lot of turnover on the PCSB.

Is Chisholm actually seeing a demographic shift after the change to immersion? I’ve been curious about that but have no information.

Where does he mention Chisholm? And actually Chisholm became only dual language much more recently than 2019 -- I think most of the gentrification the later commentator correctly notes is the general gentrification of the neighborhood and DCPS Hill ESes and less dual-language specific, though I do think that will accelerate the trend by attracting UMC families and driving many Potomac Gardens families to Payne.

But also... I think everything he's saying about KIPP is correct. Even if he's using AI tools, I don't see any obvious issues/can't imagine the overall trend isn't correct.

Full immersion started being phased in SY23-24.

In the two years from SY22-23 to SY24-25, the white population went from 19% to 23%, the black population went from 62% to 55%, latino population from 14% to 16%, and the at risk population dropped from 42% to 28%. Boundary participation rate went from 49% to 50%.

Changes above are more stark for PK. White population went from 34% to 35%, black population went from 47% to 33%, and latino population from 14% to 22%.

Definitely some gentrification happening over time but I think also Potomac Gardens families opting out of immersion model given the slower, steadier rate of white population increase over time and the much more rapid black and at risk population decrease following the move to full immersion.

I think it is a reach to say that the changes in the upper grades have much of anything to do with dual language given that nothing in the upper grades changed. At most, we'd be talking about some limited knock on effect for siblings. I think drop in the Black population and rise in the Latino population in ECE is likely directly attributable to model change, but actually it had virtually no effect on the white population in ECE (a smaller change there than in the school overall, in fact, further suggesting that the change in white population is more gentrification of the neighborhood related).

A 14 percentage point drop in the at risk population over two years is not just garden variety gentrification. Especially not in a neighborhood with basically no new development and a giant housing project.

How big is Chisholm’s ECE relative to the rest of the school? Replacing all of the Potomac Gardens kids with not at risk kids in ECE over 2 years might drive a big chunk of that if ECE is 25% of the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Schools are really not allowed to suspend and expel students anymore baring extreme circumstances. If a student was throwing things in the classroom, aggressively menacing teachers and other students, yelling vulgarities and threats, a school could physically remove the student from class and put them in a room away from other students. You can't do that anymore and students realize it.


When schools can no longer effectively discipline students then chaos reigns.

Why can’t KIPP expel? Because they are a charter?

Another perfect example of why quality education is reserved for the wealthy who can afford private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Schools are really not allowed to suspend and expel students anymore baring extreme circumstances. If a student was throwing things in the classroom, aggressively menacing teachers and other students, yelling vulgarities and threats, a school could physically remove the student from class and put them in a room away from other students. You can't do that anymore and students realize it.


When schools can no longer effectively discipline students then chaos reigns.

Why can’t KIPP expel? Because they are a charter?

Another perfect example of why quality education is reserved for the wealthy who can afford private.

No, it's not because they're a charter. OSSE, which has jurisdiction over both DCPS and charters, has been making it a lot more difficult to suspend and expel in recent years. From their whole-city perspective, moving kids from school to school doesn't actually help anything. There's also a city law (Student Fair Access to School Act) that had some changes in 2018. https://code.dccouncil.gov/us/dc/council/laws/22-157

Having said that, it totally still is possible to suspend and expel middle and high school students-- I'm not sure about elementary expulsions. It's just a lot of paperwork and a timeline with appeals etc.