Rankings App

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is some good evidence. I just looked at teams playing in the girls ECNL finals starting tomorrow - should be some of the best teams in the country right?

Choose U15 (2010s) as an example. And yes they are. Teams are ranked in Soccer Rankings as follows:
#1
#2
#4
#5
#7
#10
#11
#13

Yes but it's somewhat circular. The wins that those teams had in the last few weeks to get to the finals helped to boost their current rankings. In other words they are ranked high BECAUSE they are in the finals. Still, the rankings are useful as a blunt instrument just don't think there is a meaningful difference between the #1 and #13 ranked teams.

The ranking app doesnt care about finals. All the matters is if a team scores more or less than the expected number of goals.

I wasn't suggesting it cares that the games are called "finals". But the teams that are in the "finals" all played and won their last 4 games against other highly ranked teams. That helped their current rankings. The current rankings (which are recomputed regularly) take into account those last 4 wins. It's basically impossible to make it as far as the finals and not be a top re anked team by virtue of winning all those games including the games that qualified them for the champions league. Circular logic.

Again, the ranking app doesnt care who you win or lose to. All that matters is that you win by more or less than the expected outcome.

The teams playing against each other in finals likely have 1-1 expected outcomes which means if the final scores is 3-1 the team that won up by 3 goals which was 2 more than expected will go up in ranking. The team that lost but scored 1 goal will stay the same ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

[Anonymous]

Oh and thinking about the tournament director's aspect. If more tournaments blindly followed the app for flighting, you'd see FAR less blowouts. Of course there are "reasons" why flights are the way they are, but if a random parent can tell you the flight winner before the tournament starts, your tournament sucks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Oh and thinking about the tournament director's aspect. If more tournaments blindly followed the app for flighting, you'd see FAR less blowouts. Of course there are "reasons" why flights are the way they are, but if a random parent can tell you the flight winner before the tournament starts, your tournament sucks.

and shame on me for saying less instead of fewer - my bad!

[Anonymous]

Something good that the ranking app is doing. In my opinion. Is its's tearing down the walls between leagues. Also its making events like finals less important unless participating ups your ranking. Theres going to be a time when highly ranked teams decline things like finals if theres no way to up their ranking. Especially if theres travel/expenses involved. (The ranking app doesn't count forfeits against teams in regard to ranking. The game is thrown out no matter how leagues record them)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here is some good evidence. I just looked at teams playing in the girls ECNL finals starting tomorrow - should be some of the best teams in the country right?

Choose U15 (2010s) as an example. And yes they are. Teams are ranked in Soccer Rankings as follows:
#1
#2
#4
#5
#7
#10
#11
#13

Yes but it's somewhat circular. The wins that those teams had in the last few weeks to get to the finals helped to boost their current rankings. In other words they are ranked high BECAUSE they are in the finals. Still, the rankings are useful as a blunt instrument just don't think there is a meaningful difference between the #1 and #13 ranked teams.

The ranking app doesnt care about finals. All the matters is if a team scores more or less than the expected number of goals.

I wasn't suggesting it cares that the games are called "finals". But the teams that are in the "finals" all played and won their last 4 games against other highly ranked teams. That helped their current rankings. The current rankings (which are recomputed regularly) take into account those last 4 wins. It's basically impossible to make it as far as the finals and not be a top re anked team by virtue of winning all those games including the games that qualified them for the champions league. Circular logic.

Again, the ranking app doesnt care who you win or lose to. All that matters is that you win by more or less than the expected outcome.

The teams playing against each other in finals likely have 1-1 expected outcomes which means if the final scores is 3-1 the team that won up by 3 goals which was 2 more than expected will go up in ranking. The team that lost but scored 1 goal will stay the same ranking.

It’s not just score difference. It matters against whom you are playing. Strength of schedule. See Elo Rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

sure or also - how about all those clubs that sandbag in tournaments just to appease parents. Now you can see - no **** you beat a team by 4 that you claim as the greatest win ever at the club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

sure or also - how about all those clubs that sandbag in tournaments just to appease parents. Now you can see - no **** you beat a team by 4 that you claim as the greatest win ever at the club.

Clubs can put their teams in lower brackets for wins but all you're doing is forcing your team to win by 5 (just an example) goals to maintain their current ranking.

Here's why. If

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

sure or also - how about all those clubs that sandbag in tournaments just to appease parents. Now you can see - no **** you beat a team by 4 that you claim as the greatest win ever at the club.

Clubs can put their teams in lower brackets for wins but all you're doing is forcing your team to win by 5 (just an example) goals to maintain their current ranking.

Here's why. If

Here's why, If you play worse teams the ranking app will expect you to win by a large number of goals. If you win rhe game but not by enough goals its less than the expected outcome and the team goes down in ranking. Conversely if the team that lost had more goals than expected they'll go up in ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

sure or also - how about all those clubs that sandbag in tournaments just to appease parents. Now you can see - no **** you beat a team by 4 that you claim as the greatest win ever at the club.

Clubs can put their teams in lower brackets for wins but all you're doing is forcing your team to win by 5 (just an example) goals to maintain their current ranking.

Here's why. If

Then don't play down in lower brackets? That's a feature not a bug

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

sure or also - how about all those clubs that sandbag in tournaments just to appease parents. Now you can see - no **** you beat a team by 4 that you claim as the greatest win ever at the club.

Clubs can put their teams in lower brackets for wins but all you're doing is forcing your team to win by 5 (just an example) goals to maintain their current ranking.

Here's why. If

Here's why, If you play worse teams the ranking app will expect you to win by a large number of goals. If you win rhe game but not by enough goals its less than the expected outcome and the team goes down in ranking. Conversely if the team that lost had more goals than expected they'll go up in ranking.

This is something else I really like about the ranking app. Before it was availabe all we had was paid for rankings and tournament/event results. Now because of the ranking app theres an alternative way to view teams. Clubs, leagues, tournaments, etc can manipulate all they want but because the ranking app uses an average of over one year its hard to cheat. (Unless you cheat consistently)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do parents use these rankings apps for?

They're nosy? My kid loves when I give a little scouting report. They're definitely more useful for tournament directors/coaches, but kids aren't dumb. They want to know what the competition looks like. It's also a bit of an incentive when you beat a higher ranked team like any other ranking system.

Far better than beating a random crappy team 8-0 and celebrating like you won the WC

So this just feeds the boot-ball winning at all costs over development disease

sure or also - how about all those clubs that sandbag in tournaments just to appease parents. Now you can see - no **** you beat a team by 4 that you claim as the greatest win ever at the club.

Clubs can put their teams in lower brackets for wins but all you're doing is forcing your team to win by 5 (just an example) goals to maintain their current ranking.

Here's why. If

Then don't play down in lower brackets? That's a feature not a bug

I agree. Play down all you want but its only hurting your teams ranking if you're not beating then by the expected or more than expected number of goals.

[Anonymous]

The biggest flaw i have notice in that ranking app is i have noticed in the younger ages my kids team could beat a top 20 team 1-0 and you see no real difference in ranking then the next week they beat a team ranked 500 12-0 and that win bumps your rankings way up. The first win was a much better win but the app gives way more pts for the second win that wasnt very impressive. The rankings seem to be more accurate the older you get and less of the one sided games exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The biggest flaw i have notice in that ranking app is i have noticed in the younger ages my kids team could beat a top 20 team 1-0 and you see no real difference in ranking then the next week they beat a team ranked 500 12-0 and that win bumps your rankings way up. The first win was a much better win but the app gives way more pts for the second win that wasnt very impressive. The rankings seem to be more accurate the older you get and less of the one sided games exist.

What youre describing is exactly how it should function. Likely the first game the expected result was 3-1 for the top 20 team. Since you won 1-0 nothing will happen with your team. The top 20 team likely dropped 20 spots and is now top 40. The second game you won 12-0 and the expectation was probably 8-1. Which means your team exceeded expectations by 4 goals which pushed up your ranking and the other team was one goal lower then expectations so their ranking went down.

One of the ranking apps issues while not their fault is that some leagues and tournamants cap scores at 6+ goal differentials to limit the impression of blowouts. This holds back teams from gaining in ranking when they score 12-0 wins because they'd be recorded as 6-0.