Loiderman vs North Bethesda

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have an out-of-bounds DC at Loiederman right now and could not be happier. We chose it for theater but other outstanding areas have emerged: chorus, global humanities, math. The teachers are deeply committed and DC is thriving.

I'd also add that excellence in instrumental music cannot be achieved by a school alone, so folks arguing that the orchestra or band aren't all-state level on their own are right. But a kid who wants to start a new instrument will make remarkable progress, and a kid who wants to contribute on their instrument will be welcomed and valued. The Loiederman bands in particular are really good.

Further, student instrumentalists can take class piano or class guitar, or HS level chorus once they're good enough (for HS credit). Auditions for honors chorus and all-state junior chorus are mentored and get real results.

Dance is another art form where kids are likely to find higher levels outside of school generally than in it, but Loiederman has a serious, auditioned dance company and plenty of classes. And the sky's the limit with theater: major productions with significantly competitive auditions and serious work that continues for months and months. Huge casts, huge crews, superb attitude, and lots of learning going on.

You don't have to audition people in to create a great arts _school_ so long as there are challenging opportunities for everyone from beginners to best. If all your kid wants to do is play the violin, Loiederman can't make them Juilliard-ready on its own. But if your violinist wants to spend their days gaining confidence and skill in other art forms alongside their regular MS requirements (which are taught excellently well in our experience), Loiederman might be a great fit for them. Block schedule + 3 electives is magic for our kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have an out-of-bounds DC at Loiederman right now and could not be happier. We chose it for theater but other outstanding areas have emerged: chorus, global humanities, math. The teachers are deeply committed and DC is thriving.

I'd also add that excellence in instrumental music cannot be achieved by a school alone, so folks arguing that the orchestra or band aren't all-state level on their own are right. But a kid who wants to start a new instrument will make remarkable progress, and a kid who wants to contribute on their instrument will be welcomed and valued. The Loiederman bands in particular are really good.

Further, student instrumentalists can take class piano or class guitar, or HS level chorus once they're good enough (for HS credit). Auditions for honors chorus and all-state junior chorus are mentored and get real results.

Dance is another art form where kids are likely to find higher levels outside of school generally than in it, but Loiederman has a serious, auditioned dance company and plenty of classes. And the sky's the limit with theater: major productions with significantly competitive auditions and serious work that continues for months and months. Huge casts, huge crews, superb attitude, and lots of learning going on.

You don't have to audition people in to create a great arts _school_ so long as there are challenging opportunities for everyone from beginners to best. If all your kid wants to do is play the violin, Loiederman can't make them Juilliard-ready on its own. But if your violinist wants to spend their days gaining confidence and skill in other art forms alongside their regular MS requirements (which are taught excellently well in our experience), Loiederman might be a great fit for them. Block schedule + 3 electives is magic for our kid.

Loiederman bands are not good and the band teacher is terrible. They don’t do competitions or much else. She does the absolute minimum. We removed our kid because of them. For beginners sure, it’s fine but not at the all state, MCYO, pvyo, all county levels.

[Anonymous]

Again, folks...

You can't expect school instrumental music programs at _any_ school to substitute for private study.

And you therefore can't expect school ensembles to be on par with county or all-state ensembles.

This is, in fact, why such competitive festivals exist: to give the most skilled youth musicians in a given area the opportunity to perform at a much higher level _than_they_do_at_school_. This is also why auditioned youth orchestras exist, along with the many other opportunities that are available to music students who have had the good fortune to be able to invest time, effort, energy, and expense to develop their talents.

But for students who did not start in preschool, or whose families cannot manage private lessons, school instrumental programs can be an important bridge to something they might not otherwise be able to access. Or they can allow students who (for example) have already had several years of piano to start trumpet, or to learn to play in a jazz band.

The case might be made that in a catchment area where more families have been engaged in private music study, the school band and orchestra are likely to be better. That is true. But again, the most committed youth musicians will not be depending exclusively on school ensembles for their development. If anything, they may have skills sufficiently far beyond their peers that their playing in the school band or school orchestra might be construed at least partially as an act of service. That this exercise has value is witnessed by the fact that most state music educators' associations actually won't let students audition for all-state if they do _not_ play in their school ensemble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Again, folks...

You can't expect school instrumental music programs at _any_ school to substitute for private study.

And you therefore can't expect school ensembles to be on par with county or all-state ensembles.

This is, in fact, why such competitive festivals exist: to give the most skilled youth musicians in a given area the opportunity to perform at a much higher level _than_they_do_at_school_. This is also why auditioned youth orchestras exist, along with the many other opportunities that are available to music students who have had the good fortune to be able to invest time, effort, energy, and expense to develop their talents.

But for students who did not start in preschool, or whose families cannot manage private lessons, school instrumental programs can be an important bridge to something they might not otherwise be able to access. Or they can allow students who (for example) have already had several years of piano to start trumpet, or to learn to play in a jazz band.

The case might be made that in a catchment area where more families have been engaged in private music study, the school band and orchestra are likely to be better. That is true. But again, the most committed youth musicians will not be depending exclusively on school ensembles for their development. If anything, they may have skills sufficiently far beyond their peers that their playing in the school band or school orchestra might be construed at least partially as an act of service. That this exercise has value is witnessed by the fact that most state music educators' associations actually won't let students audition for all-state if they do _not_ play in their school ensemble.

No need to belabor the point, PP. The reality in this area is that families have a lot of resources to pay for private music lessons, which means that schools can't keep up. The music kids tolerate school band/orchestra/choir just for the All-State opportunity. I'm a music parent of an All-State kid, and we all think that. Loiederman cannot elevate their music department because they don't have the resources for private instruction, which is what would be needed.

So I guess the take away from this thread is: if you have a generally academically-unmotivated kid who loves theater, Loiederman might be a good fit. Otherwise, stay at North Bethesda, which has a stellar academic reputation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again, folks...

You can't expect school instrumental music programs at _any_ school to substitute for private study.

And you therefore can't expect school ensembles to be on par with county or all-state ensembles.

This is, in fact, why such competitive festivals exist: to give the most skilled youth musicians in a given area the opportunity to perform at a much higher level _than_they_do_at_school_. This is also why auditioned youth orchestras exist, along with the many other opportunities that are available to music students who have had the good fortune to be able to invest time, effort, energy, and expense to develop their talents.

But for students who did not start in preschool, or whose families cannot manage private lessons, school instrumental programs can be an important bridge to something they might not otherwise be able to access. Or they can allow students who (for example) have already had several years of piano to start trumpet, or to learn to play in a jazz band.

The case might be made that in a catchment area where more families have been engaged in private music study, the school band and orchestra are likely to be better. That is true. But again, the most committed youth musicians will not be depending exclusively on school ensembles for their development. If anything, they may have skills sufficiently far beyond their peers that their playing in the school band or school orchestra might be construed at least partially as an act of service. That this exercise has value is witnessed by the fact that most state music educators' associations actually won't let students audition for all-state if they do _not_ play in their school ensemble.

No need to belabor the point, PP. The reality in this area is that families have a lot of resources to pay for private music lessons, which means that schools can't keep up. The music kids tolerate school band/orchestra/choir just for the All-State opportunity. I'm a music parent of an All-State kid, and we all think that. Loiederman cannot elevate their music department because they don't have the resources for private instruction, which is what would be needed.

So I guess the take away from this thread is: if you have a generally academically-unmotivated kid who loves theater, Loiederman might be a good fit. Otherwise, stay at North Bethesda, which has a stellar academic reputation.

Its more complicated than that. You need warm, friendly welcoming teachers who teach. Many music teachers come MS and HS don't teach and kids have to learn instruments on their own to progress. Its not like elementary where its seperated into instruments and they get a lesson on that instrument. This teacher doesn't care (though most we have experienced with music do the absolute minimum but there are a few great ones).

For theater, its very competative as lots of kids want theater and few spots. You are better off at your home school for theater and doing a private theater.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The orchestra and chorus at NB win a lot of prizes, fwiw.

This. My kids did both at NB. Teachers tough but very good. I’d definitely stick to NB if interest is chorus, orchestra, or band. I’d consider Loiederman if strong interest in dance or theatre; and if academics not as high of a priority.

[Anonymous]

Interested to see how many folks here that never actually had a student at Loiederman somehow know all about it.

[Anonymous]

To the PP or multiple PPs bashing Loiderman, make up your mind. Are you here to brag that your child is way more talented and brilliant than most kids their age, in which case of course a public middle school music program isn't going to be serving kids at their level? Or are you saying you think Loiderman's music problem should be able to challenge kids like your kid and it's problematic that they can't, in which case maybe stop trying to claim your child is some kind of peerless musical genius? You can't have it both ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interested to see how many folks here that never actually had a student at Loiederman somehow know all about it.

Because parents do their research when their kids are of age to consider various special programs. Since DC2 was already many years into her instrument at the time of application, I was curious about Loiederman. I imagine the other posters writing on this thread did the same thing. I looked closely at Parkland MS for DC1 because he was interested in aerospace engineering at the time. Decided against it, for exactly the same reasons!

I know you're salty about the harsh truths some of us have been saying on this thread, but we wouldn't be posting if we hadn't actually done our homework and analyzed the pros and cons, PP. If I knew nothing about this, I wouldn't care or post. But in this situation, I want to write what I know so OP can make an informed decision.

Also, since I'm in western MoCo in a wealthy school cluster, I avoid bashing the rest of MoCo when it's clear the parents just have to deal with the school they have. I know parents with kids at Einstein and other high schools who have made it work for their kids, because they prioritize education and their kids are focused and have a nice group of friends. But OP's home school is North Bethesda, for goodness' sakes. You can't get much better than that. OP has a great option right in her neighborhood already.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To the PP or multiple PPs bashing Loiderman, make up your mind. Are you here to brag that your child is way more talented and brilliant than most kids their age, in which case of course a public middle school music program isn't going to be serving kids at their level? Or are you saying you think Loiderman's music problem should be able to challenge kids like your kid and it's problematic that they can't, in which case maybe stop trying to claim your child is some kind of peerless musical genius? You can't have it both ways.

I think people are saying that OP and other interested parents mustn't be led astray by the "magnet" designation, and believe that the program of this school is in any way top-notch. It does not select for talent or anything else, and can only do group teaching, which severely limits development in certain skills like music, where individual training is absolutely key. I can't judge their theater offering, it's not my specialty. It's not like the Takoma Park STEM magnet, which is both truly accelerated and in-depth in all math and science subjects, and which lends itself well to a traditional group learning environment.

(Also your questions and comparisons don't make sense, but that's besides the point.)

[Anonymous]

NP here, I think it's worth asking what is the quality of the core classes at Loiederman vs North Bethesda AND are the special arts electives worth it? It seems like Loiederman offers the same core classes as North Bethesda?
Also, what is the HW load in middle school at either school?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Interested to see how many folks here that never actually had a student at Loiederman somehow know all about it.

Some of us did send our kids. Not a good experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here, I think it's worth asking what is the quality of the core classes at Loiederman vs North Bethesda AND are the special arts electives worth it? It seems like Loiederman offers the same core classes as North Bethesda?
Also, what is the HW load in middle school at either school?

Most schools don’t have a lot of homework. The only advantage to loiderman is algebra in 6th but it’s not a good plan if your hs does not have multivariable calc as you may run out of math come junior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:NP here, I think it's worth asking what is the quality of the core classes at Loiederman vs North Bethesda AND are the special arts electives worth it? It seems like Loiederman offers the same core classes as North Bethesda?
Also, what is the HW load in middle school at either school?

This is well put. In our individual experience, math and global humanities have been great at Loiederman. I think the English _curriculum_ is not worth much, but I don't blame the teachers for that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP here, I think it's worth asking what is the quality of the core classes at Loiederman vs North Bethesda AND are the special arts electives worth it? It seems like Loiederman offers the same core classes as North Bethesda?
Also, what is the HW load in middle school at either school?

This is well put. In our individual experience, math and global humanities have been great at Loiederman. I think the English _curriculum_ is not worth much, but I don't blame the teachers for that.

NP. The English curriculum is going to be terrible at all schools except for Eastern magnet. It's true county-wide.

OP, you could send your child to Loiderman, see how they do there, and always return to your home school if needed. But personally, I would not do that unless you are confident Loiderman is better. The commute to a new school, and having to make new friends as opposed to working off the ones you've built in ES, would give me real pause if the neighborhood school is solid.

What does your child want to do?