Anonymous wrote:So I don’t understand the people who are arguing that you can learn languages online. I mean you can pretty much learn most anything online nowadays. So what’s the point of college?
anyone?
I already answered above. I’ve taken several foreign languages both online and in person and the online classes are ok but you absolutely don’t learn as much as in a real class. Same with any online classes. See: covid shutdown year.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting?
[No but frankly the "creative" output (movies, TV, broadway) has been such garbage for the past 20+ years that this is makes me want to cut college humanities funding more than ever. Really if you want Republican legislatures to fund college humanities you shouldn't mention this at all. Last but not least, a creative person will create even under very adverse circumstances. The vast majority of novelists don't have that as a full-time job, they do it in their spare time. Which means they'd be better off if they majored in business or STEM so they had a better full-time job to support their writing hobby.]
Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated?
[It's not that hard to teach English. A business or STEM major could easily do it.]
Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors?
[None of my kids music teachers majored in music.]
Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one?
[Native speakers who will be better at the language anyway. ]
Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
[The way things worked, successfully, for many decades was that elementary teachers were trained in "normal schools" or "teachers colleges". Bring those back, make them cheap with the understanding that graduates will become teachers. Absolutely no need to insist that teachers get a BA from an expensive college and, most idiotic of all, an MA or PhD in "education".]
Different PP.
Good luck getting native Chinese, Russian, or Spanish speakers to teach high schools in rural areas with no immigrants. And what if the few who live there don’t want to teach? Oh well. The poor don’t need any of that higher learning anyway. Might put ideas into their heads that they don’t want to work in Walmart or the chicken processing plant.
Not sure where people are getting the “$30k to $60k” a year number when talking about WVU. In state tuition is only $9600 and all in (room and board etc) it’s $22k. And this is before any financial aid.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.
Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.
And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?
Public universities have been spending like crazy on sports, new buildings, administration, and other crazy things, and raised their tuition revenues well beyond what was needed to compensate for budget cuts. This spending spree was funded on the backs of our kids. And it’s universities overwhelmingly run by Democrats who are doing this - often in Democrat-run states - not Republican legislators in Republican states.
“ Public university leaders often blame stingier state funding for the need to raise tuition revenue. And three-fourths of states did cut their support, undermining a longstanding principle that schools educated the populace with government backing. But universities generally didn’t tighten their belts as a result. Rather, they raised prices far beyond what was needed to fill the hole.
For every $1 lost in state support at those universities over the two decades, the median school increased tuition and fee revenue by nearly $2.40, more than covering the cuts, the Journal found.”
I would love to see schools get rid of sports and admin bloat and building Cadillac dorms. Can’t wait for republicans to take the lead on this. Glad you agree!
PS the quote you cite says 3/4s of states have cut their funds for public higher education.
Would your kid be willing to live in a gross old dorm?
He is and he has! Was not impressed with his dorm at all last year- would definitely have met your criteria for gross and old. But he survived. Great character building. This years dorm is only slightly better.
Also there is a huge gap between a tricked out spa dorm and a gross old one. How about just normal dorms?
Can you give examples or “normal” newer dorms that you approve of?
No, I can’t. Can you? I’m sure it’s possible to build one!
Interesting there are no examples.
Really? You have done a survey of all newer forms across the country and found no examples of non luxury ones? Fascinating. Tell us more. Why do you think there are no non-luxury ones?
Because you didn’t provide examples of your claim.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.
Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.
And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?
Public universities have been spending like crazy on sports, new buildings, administration, and other crazy things, and raised their tuition revenues well beyond what was needed to compensate for budget cuts. This spending spree was funded on the backs of our kids. And it’s universities overwhelmingly run by Democrats who are doing this - often in Democrat-run states - not Republican legislators in Republican states.
“ Public university leaders often blame stingier state funding for the need to raise tuition revenue. And three-fourths of states did cut their support, undermining a longstanding principle that schools educated the populace with government backing. But universities generally didn’t tighten their belts as a result. Rather, they raised prices far beyond what was needed to fill the hole.
For every $1 lost in state support at those universities over the two decades, the median school increased tuition and fee revenue by nearly $2.40, more than covering the cuts, the Journal found.”
I would love to see schools get rid of sports and admin bloat and building Cadillac dorms. Can’t wait for republicans to take the lead on this. Glad you agree!
PS the quote you cite says 3/4s of states have cut their funds for public higher education.
Would your kid be willing to live in a gross old dorm?
He is and he has! Was not impressed with his dorm at all last year- would definitely have met your criteria for gross and old. But he survived. Great character building. This years dorm is only slightly better.
Also there is a huge gap between a tricked out spa dorm and a gross old one. How about just normal dorms?
Can you give examples or “normal” newer dorms that you approve of?
No, I can’t. Can you? I’m sure it’s possible to build one!
Interesting there are no examples.
Really? You have done a survey of all newer forms across the country and found no examples of non luxury ones? Fascinating. Tell us more. Why do you think there are no non-luxury ones?
Because you didn’t provide examples of your claim.
You think that it's impossible not to build a luxury dorm? Why?
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
Why send your kid to college at all when there are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to learn anything? What a waste of money!
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
+1 not just people who live in WV, but 99% of people need good paying jobs out of college, and that's why they go. We have enough adults who have student loans. And given how expensive colleges have become, most people cannot afford to get a masters.
Privileged wealthy people seem to be completely clueless about normal people and how they need good paying jobs.
And republicans are clueless about the need for better funding of public schools like WVA so the tuition is affordable by all. Why is that so hard?
Public universities have been spending like crazy on sports, new buildings, administration, and other crazy things, and raised their tuition revenues well beyond what was needed to compensate for budget cuts. This spending spree was funded on the backs of our kids. And it’s universities overwhelmingly run by Democrats who are doing this - often in Democrat-run states - not Republican legislators in Republican states.
“ Public university leaders often blame stingier state funding for the need to raise tuition revenue. And three-fourths of states did cut their support, undermining a longstanding principle that schools educated the populace with government backing. But universities generally didn’t tighten their belts as a result. Rather, they raised prices far beyond what was needed to fill the hole.
For every $1 lost in state support at those universities over the two decades, the median school increased tuition and fee revenue by nearly $2.40, more than covering the cuts, the Journal found.”
I would love to see schools get rid of sports and admin bloat and building Cadillac dorms. Can’t wait for republicans to take the lead on this. Glad you agree!
PS the quote you cite says 3/4s of states have cut their funds for public higher education.
Would your kid be willing to live in a gross old dorm?
He is and he has! Was not impressed with his dorm at all last year- would definitely have met your criteria for gross and old. But he survived. Great character building. This years dorm is only slightly better.
Also there is a huge gap between a tricked out spa dorm and a gross old one. How about just normal dorms?
Can you give examples or “normal” newer dorms that you approve of?
No, I can’t. Can you? I’m sure it’s possible to build one!
Interesting there are no examples.
Really? You have done a survey of all newer forms across the country and found no examples of non luxury ones? Fascinating. Tell us more. Why do you think there are no non-luxury ones?
Because you didn’t provide examples of your claim.
You think that it's impossible not to build a luxury dorm? Why?
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness. You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting? Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated? Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors? Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one? Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
1000% agree that colleges should be more affordable, but until then, most of us have a choice to make about what to study, and we need to choose practically because most of us aren't 1%er.
As stated, some of the more popular schools will continue to have liberal studies majors, so I guess people who want to teach will go to one of those schools. But, we have a teacher shortage because not enough people want to teach K-12 for various reasons. Having more colleges offer English major isn't going to help with the teacher shortage because the reason for the shortage has nothing to do with this thread topic.
As for foreign languages, all of my FL teachers/professors but one were from that country. The one American teacher who taught that FL was the worst of them. And I went to a low rated HS.
If we have to import FL teachers, then so be it.
But until college costs go down, there will be more and more people who won't be majoring in English or a FL.
Anonymous wrote:PP, running colleges and universities like a business has led to their downfall. Why do you think the US had the best higher education system in the world, one that students from around the world wanted to attend? It wasn’t due to running them like a business.
By your standards, consumers also want straight As. Does that mean if they pay enough they should receive them?
shrug... I'm not the one who runs those universities. Many of them are liberals. Ask them why they run it like a business.
I'm all for lowering the cost of college. You go ask those colleges why they charge so much, and why they are killing off English and FL majors.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting?
[No but frankly the "creative" output (movies, TV, broadway) has been such garbage for the past 20+ years that this is makes me want to cut college humanities funding more than ever. Really if you want Republican legislatures to fund college humanities you shouldn't mention this at all. Last but not least, a creative person will create even under very adverse circumstances. The vast majority of novelists don't have that as a full-time job, they do it in their spare time. Which means they'd be better off if they majored in business or STEM so they had a better full-time job to support their writing hobby.]
Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated?
[It's not that hard to teach English. A business or STEM major could easily do it.]
Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors?
[None of my kids music teachers majored in music.]
Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one?
[Native speakers who will be better at the language anyway. ]
Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
[The way things worked, successfully, for many decades was that elementary teachers were trained in "normal schools" or "teachers colleges". Bring those back, make them cheap with the understanding that graduates will become teachers. Absolutely no need to insist that teachers get a BA from an expensive college and, most idiotic of all, an MA or PhD in "education".]
Different PP.
Good luck getting native Chinese, Russian, or Spanish speakers to teach high schools in rural areas with no immigrants. And what if the few who live there don’t want to teach? Oh well. The poor don’t need any of that higher learning anyway. Might put ideas into their heads that they don’t want to work in Walmart or the chicken processing plant.
A lot of rural school districts don't require foreign language to graduate.
Plus a lot of people in general don't want to work in rural areas, not just foreign language teachers. Rural areas have a shortage of doctors, too, and the poor definitely need doctors there.
People in rural areas have been leaving in droves because there are no job opportunities other than the chicken plant. Do you honestly think if only rural people could take a foreign language class, then they could still live there and get a good paying job? They'd leave regardless of whether they took a foreign language class or not.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting?
[No but frankly the "creative" output (movies, TV, broadway) has been such garbage for the past 20+ years that this is makes me want to cut college humanities funding more than ever. Really if you want Republican legislatures to fund college humanities you shouldn't mention this at all. Last but not least, a creative person will create even under very adverse circumstances. The vast majority of novelists don't have that as a full-time job, they do it in their spare time. Which means they'd be better off if they majored in business or STEM so they had a better full-time job to support their writing hobby.]
Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated?
[It's not that hard to teach English. A business or STEM major could easily do it.]
Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors?
[None of my kids music teachers majored in music.]
Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one?
[Native speakers who will be better at the language anyway. ]
Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
[The way things worked, successfully, for many decades was that elementary teachers were trained in "normal schools" or "teachers colleges". Bring those back, make them cheap with the understanding that graduates will become teachers. Absolutely no need to insist that teachers get a BA from an expensive college and, most idiotic of all, an MA or PhD in "education".]
Different PP.
Good luck getting native Chinese, Russian, or Spanish speakers to teach high schools in rural areas with no immigrants. And what if the few who live there don’t want to teach? Oh well. The poor don’t need any of that higher learning anyway. Might put ideas into their heads that they don’t want to work in Walmart or the chicken processing plant.
A lot of rural school districts don't require foreign language to graduate.
Plus a lot of people in general don't want to work in rural areas, not just foreign language teachers. Rural areas have a shortage of doctors, too, and the poor definitely need doctors there.
People in rural areas have been leaving in droves because there are no job opportunities other than the chicken plant. Do you honestly think if only rural people could take a foreign language class, then they could still live there and get a good paying job? They'd leave regardless of whether they took a foreign language class or not.
That's not the issue. The issue is that people here are arguing that no one should major in humanities, but then can't provide a decent answer to the question of who is going to teach such subjects in high school if no one can take classes in them, other than to say it's not necessary for poor kids to study such things anyway. Which is basically saying that if you are poor you don't deserve opportunities or to learn anything other than specific practical job skills.
My dad is nearly 90 and still speaks of regret that he never got to learn to play an instrument growing up, because of poverty. Not everyone regrets not getting exposed to things like music or arts or, yes, even foreign languages. But it's shocking that anyone thinks that because you're poor these things are not for you anyway. Especially because music and the arts have been proven to have a huge impact on growing minds. Especially learning to play an instrument. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-blog/2017/january/playing-an-instrument-better-for-your-brain-than-just-listening
Foreign language acquisition has been shown to stave off dementia and memory loss. There are so many benefits to having exposure to the arts and humanities, especially for children from poorer social-economic backgrounds. It's certainly not going to help rural areas to turn all their high schools into trade schools.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting?
[No but frankly the "creative" output (movies, TV, broadway) has been such garbage for the past 20+ years that this is makes me want to cut college humanities funding more than ever. Really if you want Republican legislatures to fund college humanities you shouldn't mention this at all. Last but not least, a creative person will create even under very adverse circumstances. The vast majority of novelists don't have that as a full-time job, they do it in their spare time. Which means they'd be better off if they majored in business or STEM so they had a better full-time job to support their writing hobby.]
Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated?
[It's not that hard to teach English. A business or STEM major could easily do it.]
Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors?
[None of my kids music teachers majored in music.]
Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one?
[Native speakers who will be better at the language anyway. ]
Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
[The way things worked, successfully, for many decades was that elementary teachers were trained in "normal schools" or "teachers colleges". Bring those back, make them cheap with the understanding that graduates will become teachers. Absolutely no need to insist that teachers get a BA from an expensive college and, most idiotic of all, an MA or PhD in "education".]
Different PP.
Good luck getting native Chinese, Russian, or Spanish speakers to teach high schools in rural areas with no immigrants. And what if the few who live there don’t want to teach? Oh well. The poor don’t need any of that higher learning anyway. Might put ideas into their heads that they don’t want to work in Walmart or the chicken processing plant.
A lot of rural school districts don't require foreign language to graduate.
Plus a lot of people in general don't want to work in rural areas, not just foreign language teachers. Rural areas have a shortage of doctors, too, and the poor definitely need doctors there.
People in rural areas have been leaving in droves because there are no job opportunities other than the chicken plant. Do you honestly think if only rural people could take a foreign language class, then they could still live there and get a good paying job? They'd leave regardless of whether they took a foreign language class or not.
That's not the issue. The issue is that people here are arguing that no one should major in humanities, but then can't provide a decent answer to the question of who is going to teach such subjects in high school if no one can take classes in them, other than to say it's not necessary for poor kids to study such things anyway. Which is basically saying that if you are poor you don't deserve opportunities or to learn anything other than specific practical job skills.
My dad is nearly 90 and still speaks of regret that he never got to learn to play an instrument growing up, because of poverty. Not everyone regrets not getting exposed to things like music or arts or, yes, even foreign languages. But it's shocking that anyone thinks that because you're poor these things are not for you anyway. Especially because music and the arts have been proven to have a huge impact on growing minds. Especially learning to play an instrument. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-blog/2017/january/playing-an-instrument-better-for-your-brain-than-just-listening
Foreign language acquisition has been shown to stave off dementia and memory loss. There are so many benefits to having exposure to the arts and humanities, especially for children from poorer social-economic backgrounds. It's certainly not going to help rural areas to turn all their high schools into trade schools.
No one said poor people don't "deserve" to major in humanities. What was stated that these majors are no longer popular because it's hard to get a good paying job with that major with just an undergrad, and poor people have less choices and options in terms of advanced degrees.
You keep equating being a non liberal arts major as "trade school". IMO, you are the one who is being elitist.
If you want your kid to be a liberal arts major and teach in rural schools, then please do so. I'm sure they would appreciate more teachers over there.
But most people don't want to do that, hence the reason for the declining enrollment in that major.
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting?
[No but frankly the "creative" output (movies, TV, broadway) has been such garbage for the past 20+ years that this is makes me want to cut college humanities funding more than ever. Really if you want Republican legislatures to fund college humanities you shouldn't mention this at all. Last but not least, a creative person will create even under very adverse circumstances. The vast majority of novelists don't have that as a full-time job, they do it in their spare time. Which means they'd be better off if they majored in business or STEM so they had a better full-time job to support their writing hobby.]
Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated?
[It's not that hard to teach English. A business or STEM major could easily do it.]
Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors?
[None of my kids music teachers majored in music.]
Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one?
[Native speakers who will be better at the language anyway. ]
Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
[The way things worked, successfully, for many decades was that elementary teachers were trained in "normal schools" or "teachers colleges". Bring those back, make them cheap with the understanding that graduates will become teachers. Absolutely no need to insist that teachers get a BA from an expensive college and, most idiotic of all, an MA or PhD in "education".]
Different PP.
Good luck getting native Chinese, Russian, or Spanish speakers to teach high schools in rural areas with no immigrants. And what if the few who live there don’t want to teach? Oh well. The poor don’t need any of that higher learning anyway. Might put ideas into their heads that they don’t want to work in Walmart or the chicken processing plant.
A lot of rural school districts don't require foreign language to graduate.
Plus a lot of people in general don't want to work in rural areas, not just foreign language teachers. Rural areas have a shortage of doctors, too, and the poor definitely need doctors there.
People in rural areas have been leaving in droves because there are no job opportunities other than the chicken plant. Do you honestly think if only rural people could take a foreign language class, then they could still live there and get a good paying job? They'd leave regardless of whether they took a foreign language class or not.
That's not the issue. The issue is that people here are arguing that no one should major in humanities, but then can't provide a decent answer to the question of who is going to teach such subjects in high school if no one can take classes in them, other than to say it's not necessary for poor kids to study such things anyway. Which is basically saying that if you are poor you don't deserve opportunities or to learn anything other than specific practical job skills.
My dad is nearly 90 and still speaks of regret that he never got to learn to play an instrument growing up, because of poverty. Not everyone regrets not getting exposed to things like music or arts or, yes, even foreign languages. But it's shocking that anyone thinks that because you're poor these things are not for you anyway. Especially because music and the arts have been proven to have a huge impact on growing minds. Especially learning to play an instrument. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-blog/2017/january/playing-an-instrument-better-for-your-brain-than-just-listening
Foreign language acquisition has been shown to stave off dementia and memory loss. There are so many benefits to having exposure to the arts and humanities, especially for children from poorer social-economic backgrounds. It's certainly not going to help rural areas to turn all their high schools into trade schools.
No one said poor people don't "deserve" to major in humanities. What was stated that these majors are no longer popular because it's hard to get a good paying job with that major with just an undergrad, and poor people have less choices and options in terms of advanced degrees.
You keep equating being a non liberal arts major as "trade school". IMO, you are the one who is being elitist.
If you want your kid to be a liberal arts major and teach in rural schools, then please do so. I'm sure they would appreciate more teachers over there.
But most people don't want to do that, hence the reason for the declining enrollment in that major.
For the love of god, this is NOT JUST ABOUT MAJORS - why is this so hard for you all to understand? It's about students who might want to take foreign languages, a philosophy class, English, even if they are majoring in STEM. When you abolish departments and fire the professors who teach those classes it affects not just the majors but ANYONE WHO WANTED TO TAKE THOSE COURSES. Yes, I'm yelling because you all keep trotting out the whole "humanities majors are waste of money" line when this is about cutting departments all together, thereby limiting what students can access.
And fine, sure, most people don't want to teach in rural schools. Don't encourage anyone to do it and see what happens. Not my problem. Doesn't bode well for the future of rural America but whatever. Just don't come crying when rural Americans realize they've been shafted because they have a teacher shortage or when there are no teachers with training or backgrounds in the subjects they teach. That seems to be your vision for a state like WV. Who cares whether their schools are decent, who cares about the quality of the teaching, or what classes poor kids can access. Who cares if they get no exposure to art, music, history, or AP classes in things like English literature. Right? Those things are for rich kids anyway, and no kid from WV would strive to get into a select school that might want to see some of those things on a transcript.
“It’s come as a major shock and a major blow to the morale of many of my peers,” said Christian Adams, 18, a sophomore from Clarksburg, W.Va., who wants to major in Chinese studies. “It’s heartbreaking.”
So much for WV kids having no dreams beyond practical courses.
Moreover, only 42% of students there are in-state. They probably count on the high number of out-of-state kids to pay the out-of-state tuition. But a lot of kids aren't going to choose a flagship out-of-state school that is slashing so many classes. And this is going to eviscerate the study abroad programs, especially the exchange ones where schools swap students for a semester or year. Why would you send your students to a school that has decimated so many programs or accept students from there with few language skills?
Oh, they're also doing away with the doctoral math program. I mean, who needs a ph.d. in math anyway? It's not like there are any other fields besides math that use higher math skills...right?
But seriously, how are these drastic cuts going to help with the declining enrollment? Especially how are they going to attract more out of state students who pay higher tuition?
Anonymous wrote:It is not just WVU that has been dropping language programs. This has been going on since at least the great recession. My understanding is that fewer students are taking language in HS (and the vast majority of those kids are taking Spanish) and fewer are taking it at the university level. There is just not much demand. People argue that folks need to know these languages for foreign service and military intelligence, but as someone who has experience in both of these areas, the foreign service and the military have their own language training programs. There is of course a real need for spanish speakers in many parts of the country for in health, policing, education type jobs, but, there is really no demand for other languages. My guess is that universities are also having trouble finding qualified professors for these programs.
I have a friend who majored in German who said it was the biggest mistake of their life. The UN only needs so many translators, and you can’t even get a job teaching it in high school, because no HS offers German.
Well, that is an indictment of your friend’s lack of creativity and originality rather than a knock on being a German major.
You can do just as much, if not more, with a foreign language degree as any other liberal arts degree. It’s like saying majoring in history is a mistake because there are only so many historian jobs out there.
Also, WVU’s Department of World Languages makes prominently clear on its website that many of their students “wisely combine their degree with another major or minor” and goes on to explain how easy that can be. It’s not like they are trying to steer their students to what you would consider to be a useless major.
Not that PP but the fact that you can do "something else" with your foreign language degree is a terrible argument for majoring in foreign language. Go major in the "something else" and take your foreign language classes on the side, if you must. (That's what I did.) Same thing with history, for that matter. Indeed there is even less reason to major in history than foreign languages because you can easily learn as much history as you want to know without taking a single college class.
I majored in Spanish, studied abroad my junior year, won a Fulbright, went to law school, leveraged my Spanish degree and Fulbright/international experience (which I never would have had without being a Spanish major) into becoming an international lawyer, made millions, retired early, and in my retirement travel frequently to Spanish-speaking countries for leisure and adventure. Before I retired I could compete for assignments that others could not, and now that I am not working I can go deeper into places where others cannot and communicate with millions of people with whom others cannot, all because of my foreign language focus in college.
Being a foreign language major has served me very well both professionally and professionally. No regrets.
DP. that's because you went to law school after getting an undergrad in Spanish. Had you not gone to law school, and got a high paying job with just an undergrad, then you'd have an argument. One could major in something completely obscure, still go to law school and get a high paying job.
Not every undergrad who majors in foreign language will or have the chops to go to law school.
Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand this logic.
-signed not a lawyer
It’s not that black and white.
I would not have had either the career as a lawyer that I did without the foreign language degree, and I wouldn’t have had the life I have had outside of the law without the language either.
Trying to generalize from your particular experience to all other foreign language majors is preposterous.
In particular, we know that the median wage of a foreign language major is $54k, including the ones who went on to become lawyers like you did, which indicates this is a very unpromising career path.
Sigh. It’s so tiresome arguing with single-minded thinkers who are laser focused on one thing: how much money you can make.
Only in America so folks think that it’s not useful to speak a second language.
If you are the PP, then you told us how you made big bucks with your foreign language degree, so it sounds like that was pretty important to you.
And yeah, in America it really isn't all that useful to learn a second language, especially in college. If you need someone who speaks Spanish, there are literally tens of millions of native speakers you can hire.
+1 No shortage of Spanish speakers in this country. Actually, you can probably find native speakers of most major languages in the DC area.
I realize I’m wasting my time belaboring this point, but . . .
Hiring a translator won’t cut it when your job involves hopping on a plane to a Spanish speaking country, meeting with Spanish speaking clients, entertaining said clients in local restaurants in Spanish speaking cities, meeting and conducting meetings with local Spanish speaking witnesses, lawyers and government officials, etc. You don’t - can’t - do all of that with your trusty translator at your hip.
The idea that it is of no benefit in today’s international marketplace to speak a second language because you can just go out and hire a translator is not a very sophisticated one.
? I didn't say to hire a translator. Point is that you can learn a foreign language by hiring a native speaker to teach you.
Lol, right. Do you have any idea how long that takes? I’m sorry but you really don’t know what you’re talking about.
? I'm bilingual. You think spending close to $100K in four years to speak a foreign language is justified?
You’re presumably bilingual because you grew up in a bilingual household and not because you went out and hired a native speaker to the point where you are now bilingual.
And you’re obviously one of those people who thinks that everyone should be a STEM major and that there’s no place in the world for the liberal arts.
There is simply no reasoning with folks like you because you will never budge on this.
You don't have to be a STEM major to be able to get a good paying job with just an undergrad, but 99% you won't be able to find a good paying job with just an undergrad degree in a foreign language.
Also, you could go to community college to learn a foreign language, and/or do a study abroad to immerse yourself in that language and culture. My DH did that, and was able to fluently speak a particular foreign language after they came back.
There is absolutely no reason to spend $100K to learn to speak a foreign language. If your parents are wealthy, sure, you could study ceramic making and be fine. But, 99% of people who go to college can't do that. They need a good paying job after college, especially those who take out loans.
language skills open the door to a lot of jobs. teaching for one.
sure, but you also need a teaching cert and education degree (in many cases) to teach. Again, language undergrad major alone won't lead to good paying jobs.
So your argument that no bachelors that doesn’t lead directly to a “good paying job” is worthwhile? And needing to get any additional credentials means your bachelors was a waste?
DP. WVU has to serve its residents, who are amongst the poorest in the nation. They need good paying jobs.
They also need students that will continue to live and work in West Virginia as their population is dwindling.
I don’t know of too many jobs in WV that will pay enough to pull someone out of poverty that require foreign language skills.
The rich can afford to major in areas that do not lead to good paying jobs. How blind are you to the reality that many Americans face? This is why this nation is so divided. The rich and privileged telling everyone that their way is the only right way.
West Virginia also needs lawyers, doctors, MBAs, social workers, teachers, nurses, administrators, police officers … all jobs for which a BA in Spanish could be a great start. If WV wants to focus on higher education ROI it should cut tuition.
WVU has a great nursing program, pre-medical program, administration program, education program, and a law school. No one needs a BA in Spanish as a great start to those ends.
And WVU's tuition is one of the lowest.
Any other great pontificating directions you got?
You can be a premed Spanish major. You can do law school with a bachelors. Taking real Spanish classes would obviously be tremendously useful for a nursing BN. You can equally get a teaching credential with a Spanish degree as an education degree. Not sure what an “administration” major entails but I’m going to guess Spanish is equally useful.
Indeed. Point is, you need to get another degree with your Spanish degree in order to get a decent paying job. By itself, a Spanish undergrad doesn't do much for you.
Also, they don't need Spanish speakers in the work place in WV.
so all humanities majors should be eliminated.
no, that is not what I stated. If you want to spend your money on a humanities degree, go ahead. But, we all know that most humanities majors need an advanced degree to get a good paying job.
But as a PP stated, forcing a student to spend $30K to $60k+ a year on several humanities courses seems like a waste.
In Europe, you pay to take classes in your major, not a rehash of liberal studies that they took in HS. I suppose our K-12 education system here is so bad that colleges require a rehash of those liberal studies in college. Either that, or the colleges are just milking it by making those courses a requirement.
As we keep hearing, universities are a business, and they are going to cut classes where there is little interest. I'm sure if there were a lot of students interested in FL at WVU, they would've kept the department. The same thing happens all across universities, public and private, even at the HS level. If there isn't much interest in a specific class, they cut it. There are colleges that have gotten rid of several majors. This is not new to WVU.
Another example, Marymount University in Virginia ditched their English and History major programs.
[from 2017 to 2022,] The English-major head count fell 23 percent in that time, to about 113,000. History fell 12 percent, to about 77,000.
Some schools have taken radical steps. Marymount University, a Catholic institution in Northern Virginia, decided in February to phase out history and English majors, citing low enrollment and a responsibility to prepare students “for the fulfilling, in-demand careers of the future.” St. Mary’s University of Minnesota made a similar announcement last year.
I believe there was a thread about some of these majors being killed off.
WVU may be a flagship, but it's a small and declining one. The larger flagships and elite privates will always have people wanting to major in liberal studies, so I don't think those majors are going to be completely gone from colleges across the country, but you can see, the interest in such fields has declined significantly over the years.
As I stated earlier, gone are the days when colleges are only for the wealthy elite who major in liberal studies. You can lament the loss of such majors all you want, but consumers have spoken. So, unless you want to go back to the days of where only the elite when to college, the trend of liberal studies declining is here to stay.
Or you can make college affordable so no one is coming out with 100k in loans. Like they do in other parts of the world.
We as a society are diminished when you slash opportunities for kids to learn all about humankind in its richness.
[There is no need to force parents and kids to spend insane amounts of money on college courses to achieve this. There are abundant FREE resources for any kid who wants to achieve this.]
You think those business and STEM majors are going to go off to create the movies, tv and broadway shows, the art, music, and fashion, write the novels and magazine stories that make our lives more interesting?
[No but frankly the "creative" output (movies, TV, broadway) has been such garbage for the past 20+ years that this is makes me want to cut college humanities funding more than ever. Really if you want Republican legislatures to fund college humanities you shouldn't mention this at all. Last but not least, a creative person will create even under very adverse circumstances. The vast majority of novelists don't have that as a full-time job, they do it in their spare time. Which means they'd be better off if they majored in business or STEM so they had a better full-time job to support their writing hobby.]
Who is going to teach English to our kids if you sneer so much at English majors and think they should be eliminated?
[It's not that hard to teach English. A business or STEM major could easily do it.]
Who is going to teach your kids to play ab instrument if you get rid of music majors?
[None of my kids music teachers majored in music.]
Who will teach foreign languages if no one can even take a class in college in one?
[Native speakers who will be better at the language anyway. ]
Will teaching become a profession only for the the 1%? Good luck with that, getting millionaires kids to become high school teachers. Seriously myopic.
[The way things worked, successfully, for many decades was that elementary teachers were trained in "normal schools" or "teachers colleges". Bring those back, make them cheap with the understanding that graduates will become teachers. Absolutely no need to insist that teachers get a BA from an expensive college and, most idiotic of all, an MA or PhD in "education".]
Different PP.
Good luck getting native Chinese, Russian, or Spanish speakers to teach high schools in rural areas with no immigrants. And what if the few who live there don’t want to teach? Oh well. The poor don’t need any of that higher learning anyway. Might put ideas into their heads that they don’t want to work in Walmart or the chicken processing plant.
A lot of rural school districts don't require foreign language to graduate.
Plus a lot of people in general don't want to work in rural areas, not just foreign language teachers. Rural areas have a shortage of doctors, too, and the poor definitely need doctors there.
People in rural areas have been leaving in droves because there are no job opportunities other than the chicken plant. Do you honestly think if only rural people could take a foreign language class, then they could still live there and get a good paying job? They'd leave regardless of whether they took a foreign language class or not.
That's not the issue. The issue is that people here are arguing that no one should major in humanities, but then can't provide a decent answer to the question of who is going to teach such subjects in high school if no one can take classes in them, other than to say it's not necessary for poor kids to study such things anyway. Which is basically saying that if you are poor you don't deserve opportunities or to learn anything other than specific practical job skills.
My dad is nearly 90 and still speaks of regret that he never got to learn to play an instrument growing up, because of poverty. Not everyone regrets not getting exposed to things like music or arts or, yes, even foreign languages. But it's shocking that anyone thinks that because you're poor these things are not for you anyway. Especially because music and the arts have been proven to have a huge impact on growing minds. Especially learning to play an instrument. https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-blog/2017/january/playing-an-instrument-better-for-your-brain-than-just-listening
Foreign language acquisition has been shown to stave off dementia and memory loss. There are so many benefits to having exposure to the arts and humanities, especially for children from poorer social-economic backgrounds. It's certainly not going to help rural areas to turn all their high schools into trade schools.
No one said poor people don't "deserve" to major in humanities. What was stated that these majors are no longer popular because it's hard to get a good paying job with that major with just an undergrad, and poor people have less choices and options in terms of advanced degrees.
You keep equating being a non liberal arts major as "trade school". IMO, you are the one who is being elitist.
If you want your kid to be a liberal arts major and teach in rural schools, then please do so. I'm sure they would appreciate more teachers over there.
But most people don't want to do that, hence the reason for the declining enrollment in that major.
For the love of god, this is NOT JUST ABOUT MAJORS - why is this so hard for you all to understand? It's about students who might want to take foreign languages, a philosophy class, English, even if they are majoring in STEM. When you abolish departments and fire the professors who teach those classes it affects not just the majors but ANYONE WHO WANTED TO TAKE THOSE COURSES. Yes, I'm yelling because you all keep trotting out the whole "humanities majors are waste of money" line when this is about cutting departments all together, thereby limiting what students can access.
And fine, sure, most people don't want to teach in rural schools. Don't encourage anyone to do it and see what happens. Not my problem. Doesn't bode well for the future of rural America but whatever. Just don't come crying when rural Americans realize they've been shafted because they have a teacher shortage or when there are no teachers with training or backgrounds in the subjects they teach. That seems to be your vision for a state like WV. Who cares whether their schools are decent, who cares about the quality of the teaching, or what classes poor kids can access. Who cares if they get no exposure to art, music, history, or AP classes in things like English literature. Right? Those things are for rich kids anyway, and no kid from WV would strive to get into a select school that might want to see some of those things on a transcript.
People don't want to live in rural America, period. Doctors don't want to live there, either. That's why rural America is dying out.
It has zero to do with liberal arts studies.
As for kids who want to take foreign language classes, unfortunately, they chose a college where there is no demand. A college, much like a public HS, is not going to teach a class that has very few people in it. Schools cannot afford to do that.
There's no interest in foreign language classes there. The end.
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