chinese immersion in ES and chinese language in HS

[Anonymous]

He is in 10th grade and went through the entire MCPS chinese immersion program at Potomac Elementary, the on to Hoover and Churchill for chinese language instruction. We are told that next year, Chinese 5, he will be given the Chinese SAT Subject test at the beginning of year. Depending on his score he will be encouraged to either stay with the language or drop it. Several parents of Chinese 5 students have told me this. The vast majority of DS's class is native speakers. The 3 non native speakers started in the immersion program as well. One was a year ahead of my son and has dropped down level. The course highly favors the native speakers and discriminates against the non-native speakers. Sadly, we will probably let him quit Chinese after this year. His GPA is too important to allow the chinese to bring it down. The non native students never get A's, rarely get B's and mostly get C's. After 11 years in these programs I've come to realize that allowing the native speakers to dictate the level of the program is like letting native English speakers dictate the difficulty level of ESOL. If you disagree with me, tell my why.

[Anonymous]

are they native speakers? or american born children of native speakers? I made the assumption that the children of chinese speaking parents would be fluent, but found in practice few of them are. (howard county has no immersion elementary). Their accent is better, and there's someone at home to help with the homework - this is at elementary years.

I have seen spanish classes divided into native speakers and non native speakers.

[Anonymous]

We are several years behind you, we live in Ffx Cty, but I am glad (?) to hear your perspective as we grapple with a similar (?) situation. We are the parents of an (adopted) Chinese daughter (age 4.5) and we are wondering about the efficacy of putting her in a Chinese language program. I just do not know how long and how effectively we can support her, however, w/o being practitioners of the language at home. I contemplate taking the language alongside her (this would be a Sat. Chinese school) but, honestly, I work FT so my weekend hours are precious to me and we feel like we are treading water just as it is. I am grateful to read your perspective as someone who is a few years ahead of us. I am leaning towards not doing the Chinese lessons, but will listen to others' opinions as well.

[Anonymous]

I would have him take the SAT test in June so you can plan. If he is in Chinese 4 now, some colleges will accept that he as met their foreign language requirement. Chinese SAT has the highest average score amongst all SAT subject tests. It looks like 43% of students scored 800 on the test, and 89% got at least 700. I wouldn't risk his gpa.

http://www.collegeboard.com/prod_downloads/highered/ra/sat/SubjTestPercentileRanks.pdf

[Anonymous]

for 22:47, I think there's some benefit to early chinese instruction to get familiar with the tones and accent. My child started at 5 with weekend chinese school, we now have a weekly class with a small private group. Her accent is way better than mine even if she's not fluent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:for 22:47, I think there's some benefit to early chinese instruction to get familiar with the tones and accent. My child started at 5 with weekend chinese school, we now have a weekly class with a small private group. Her accent is way better than mine even if she's not fluent.

Thanks, 14:16. Do you mind telling me where your child went for the weekend Chinese school? And/or the info about the small private group class too? I have heard others mention the Hope Chinese School and I even have gone on their website and sent an email for more info but never got a reply, but maybe I am going about it the wrong way, but I actually could not find a phone # for them either. I have also looked into Language Stars but they seem quite pricey. We are in Reston, if it matters. Thank you in advance if you do not mind sharing the info.

[Anonymous]

Just so you know, the more competitive colleges look for 3-4 years of a foreign language at the high school level. It doesn't have to be Chinese. In fact, if he maxes out on the Chinese after sophomore year, he'd need to start a different foreign language just to get his 3-4 years of high school-level foreign language. But if he drops the Chinese next year, he should definitely switch to another language like Spanish or French.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know, the more competitive colleges look for 3-4 years of a foreign language at the high school level. It doesn't have to be Chinese. In fact, if he maxes out on the Chinese after sophomore year, he'd need to start a different foreign language just to get his 3-4 years of high school-level foreign language. But if he drops the Chinese next year, he should definitely switch to another language like Spanish or French.

So taking Chinese 1 - 4 in high school is viewed more desirably by colleges than taking Chinese 3 and 4? Both end up with same level of expertise but it shows that one student was more motivated to start the language in middle school. Do you know this for a fact? I'll be really depressed if this true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know, the more competitive colleges look for 3-4 years of a foreign language at the high school level. It doesn't have to be Chinese. In fact, if he maxes out on the Chinese after sophomore year, he'd need to start a different foreign language just to get his 3-4 years of high school-level foreign language. But if he drops the Chinese next year, he should definitely switch to another language like Spanish or French.

I think the above assumption apply to the majority of college applicants that are fluent speakers of English language and are learning another language (Spanish, French, Madarin, etc.) as a second langue. I don't think the rule (taking 3-4 years of a foreign language in high school) apply to kids that are functionally bilingual or multilingual (speaks English and at least another foreign language equally well).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know, the more competitive colleges look for 3-4 years of a foreign language at the high school level. It doesn't have to be Chinese. In fact, if he maxes out on the Chinese after sophomore year, he'd need to start a different foreign language just to get his 3-4 years of high school-level foreign language. But if he drops the Chinese next year, he should definitely switch to another language like Spanish or French.

So taking Chinese 1 - 4 in high school is viewed more desirably by colleges than taking Chinese 3 and 4? Both end up with same level of expertise but it shows that one student was more motivated to start the language in middle school. Do you know this for a fact? I'll be really depressed if this true.

I think the colleges would wonder why DC stopped, and did not show intellectual curiosity (?) and or tenacity (?) to continue. Sorry to say this, but I do think this is how they'd see it. . .

Your child would get the kudos for starting it early, yes, but then they'd prob think, "What happened after soph. year?"

Sorry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know, the more competitive colleges look for 3-4 years of a foreign language at the high school level. It doesn't have to be Chinese. In fact, if he maxes out on the Chinese after sophomore year, he'd need to start a different foreign language just to get his 3-4 years of high school-level foreign language. But if he drops the Chinese next year, he should definitely switch to another language like Spanish or French.

I think the above assumption apply to the majority of college applicants that are fluent speakers of English language and are learning another language (Spanish, French, Madarin, etc.) as a second langue. I don't think the rule (taking 3-4 years of a foreign language in high school) apply to kids that are functionally bilingual or multilingual (speaks English and at least another foreign language equally well).

I'm the original poster on this little sub-topic. My DC1 started a foreign language in middle school and DC2 did immersion (not in Chinese) starting in K. DC1 is a junior now and DC1's college counselor has been clear that you need 3-4 years of a foreign language *in high school* so when DC1 maxed out at 3 years (the high school didn't offer a 4th year of this unusual language) after freshman year, DC1 was told to start another language. We've heard over and over, wrt DC2 who is in immersion, that DC2 will probably max out (i.e. AP level) in that language in the middle of high school and will need to start a second language. We've heard from many places that it's not enough for DC2 to take the AP level as a sophomore and stop with languages altogether.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just so you know, the more competitive colleges look for 3-4 years of a foreign language at the high school level. It doesn't have to be Chinese. In fact, if he maxes out on the Chinese after sophomore year, he'd need to start a different foreign language just to get his 3-4 years of high school-level foreign language. But if he drops the Chinese next year, he should definitely switch to another language like Spanish or French.

I think the above assumption apply to the majority of college applicants that are fluent speakers of English language and are learning another language (Spanish, French, Madarin, etc.) as a second langue. I don't think the rule (taking 3-4 years of a foreign language in high school) apply to kids that are functionally bilingual or multilingual (speaks English and at least another foreign language equally well).

I'm the original poster on this little sub-topic. My DC1 started a foreign language in middle school and DC2 did immersion (not in Chinese) starting in K. DC1 is a junior now and DC1's college counselor has been clear that you need 3-4 years of a foreign language *in high school* so when DC1 maxed out at 3 years (the high school didn't offer a 4th year of this unusual language) after freshman year, DC1 was told to start another language. We've heard over and over, wrt DC2 who is in immersion, that DC2 will probably max out (i.e. AP level) in that language in the middle of high school and will need to start a second language. We've heard from many places that it's not enough for DC2 to take the AP level as a sophomore and stop with languages altogether.

Can anyone with the inside scoop on college admissions please weigh in on this? It's ridiculous that we have to play these guessing games.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: He is in 10th grade and went through the entire MCPS chinese immersion program at Potomac Elementary, the on to Hoover and Churchill for chinese language instruction. We are told that next year, Chinese 5, he will be given the Chinese SAT Subject test at the beginning of year. Depending on his score he will be encouraged to either stay with the language or drop it. Several parents of Chinese 5 students have told me this. The vast majority of DS's class is native speakers. The 3 non native speakers started in the immersion program as well. One was a year ahead of my son and has dropped down level. The course highly favors the native speakers and discriminates against the non-native speakers. Sadly, we will probably let him quit Chinese after this year. His GPA is too important to allow the chinese to bring it down. The non native students never get A's, rarely get B's and mostly get C's. After 11 years in these programs I've come to realize that allowing the native speakers to dictate the level of the program is like letting native English speakers dictate the difficulty level of ESOL. If you disagree with me, tell my why.

What did you expect? Look in the window of any Chinese class (foreign language class) and you will nothing but Chinese students. They are there to inflate their GPA's. The school I worked at tried Russian once and the only students who signed up were Russian!

[Anonymous]

14:21, there's a slew of them. Hope is big, in both gaithersburg and college park. We used Howard county chinese school's bilingual program, and then found a teacher independently. Perhaps the confucius institute at the University of Maryland could suggest a private teacher. Find some chinese parents and ask where their kids go. Local chinese adoptive parent groups often organize classes or find teachers.

This local association of chinese schools lists a lot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metropolitan_Association_of_Chinese_Schools

Northern Virginia Chinese School and Experimental Chinese School are both in northern va. These school are volunteer run so you sometimes have to try more than one method of approach. You'd want to ask if they have any classes for children where chinese is not spoken in the home, and confirm they teach mandarin with simplified characters. Most do, but there's a few others who teach other dialects or with traditional characters.

22:14, I disagree. Grade school kids of chinese speaking parents I know can't even respond fluently to their teachers in chinese. Our teacher said the local native engligh speaking kids in the DC immersion programs are more fluent. It's mostly understanding things they answer in english, and basic sentences of household subjects. ("yes, I want water.") They have to work incredibly hard to be fluent. Now my kid would have to work even harder but those american born chinese kids are not fluent as children. Not even close. Since many of then attend weekend chinese school I guess they see if they have to put in so much parent-mandated work, they might as well get school credit for it! Maybe there are some chinese immigrant kids who got fluent before they moved here - it's be MUCH easier for them - they are the only ones that would find it an easy A.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:14:21, there's a slew of them. Hope is big, in both gaithersburg and college park. We used Howard county chinese school's bilingual program, and then found a teacher independently. Perhaps the confucius institute at the University of Maryland could suggest a private teacher. Find some chinese parents and ask where their kids go. Local chinese adoptive parent groups often organize classes or find teachers.

This local association of chinese schools lists a lot, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metropolitan_Association_of_Chinese_Schools

Northern Virginia Chinese School and Experimental Chinese School are both in northern va. These school are volunteer run so you sometimes have to try more than one method of approach. You'd want to ask if they have any classes for children where chinese is not spoken in the home, and confirm they teach mandarin with simplified characters. Most do, but there's a few others who teach other dialects or with traditional characters.

22:14, I disagree. Grade school kids of chinese speaking parents I know can't even respond fluently to their teachers in chinese. Our teacher said the local native engligh speaking kids in the DC immersion programs are more fluent. It's mostly understanding things they answer in english, and basic sentences of household subjects. ("yes, I want water.") They have to work incredibly hard to be fluent. Now my kid would have to work even harder but those american born chinese kids are not fluent as children. Not even close. Since many of then attend weekend chinese school I guess they see if they have to put in so much parent-mandated work, they might as well get school credit for it! Maybe there are some chinese immigrant kids who got fluent before they moved here - it's be MUCH easier for them - they are the only ones that would find it an easy A.

I'm the OP. I have to disagree with your last paragraph. When my DC was in the immersion program, he would come home and say that the teacher spent a lot of time speaking in mandarin to the native speakers. They would have conversations and laugh together. My DC had no idea what they were saying and neither did the other non-native speakers. The parents were angry, as you can imagine.