"Why Do They Hate Us?"

[Anonymous]

I heard this author on NPR and looked up her article in Foreign Policy. Very powerful writing.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us

[Anonymous]

That article's been driving me nuts since it came out. It's so reflective of her inherent personal rage, it really obscures the real problem, and worse, offers no solution. There have been many rebuttal essays. This one resonates most with me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/monica-l-marks/do-arabs-really-hate-wome_b_1453147.html

Yes, there are systemic problems and cultural standards that treat women as second class citizens in many circumstances. There is no doubt about it. But the idea that Arab men in general are carrying around something as intense as blanket hatred for women is simply untrue. No culture is that simplistic and I think it's dangerous to think of it that way. Egypt in particular is a wonderfully rich, complex, and diverse culture. I wish Eltahawy had tried to root out the causes with an eye toward improvement. But she seems to think (from all I've read by her) that once the revolution is truly complete, women will have a better life. I don't think it's that simple. Until most Egyptians can put food on their tables and have some degree of economic self-determination, I think women will continue to suffer, and I don't think the Islamist parties that have swept in are focusing enough on economic issues. They are obsessed, at least for now, with moral issues and Israel. Middle and upper class women in Egypt have a good degree of autonomy in Egypt right now and in many ways live lives very similar to ours. Money matters. A lot.

Egypt has done well in providing free college educations to anyone, regardless of gender, if they test well (public education is similar to European tracked education). Under Mubarak, there were some advances for women regarding personal status laws. FGM was banned (albeit still widely practiced, Muslims and Christians alike). Divorce was made easier for Muslim women (although Christian women still can't divorce). Child custody laws are very favorable for women, who get physical custody of the kids up until at least age 13. Which may not sound great but it's better than many other Islamic countries. The minimum age for marriage is 18 (for now at least). Again, it's nowhere near perfect, but there was some progress. Egypt is in dire need of economic reform and growth, and I think if this ever happens, you will find civil rights follow. We'll see.

Mostly I object to her blanket characterization of Arab men, because while it's only anecdotal, the men in my Egyptian family don't hate women at all, and historically have treated women very lovingly. Daughters and wives and mothers. And polite to coworkers and friends and strangers. Most women in my family are doctors, pharmacists, and fairly high ranking government officials. Their lives in Cairo are very similar to how I live here. I'd rather people work toward improving problems rather than denigrating an entire culture and gender.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That article's been driving me nuts since it came out. It's so reflective of her inherent personal rage, it really obscures the real problem, and worse, offers no solution. There have been many rebuttal essays. This one resonates most with me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/monica-l-marks/do-arabs-really-hate-wome_b_1453147.html

Yes, there are systemic problems and cultural standards that treat women as second class citizens in many circumstances. There is no doubt about it. But the idea that Arab men in general are carrying around something as intense as blanket hatred for women is simply untrue. No culture is that simplistic and I think it's dangerous to think of it that way. Egypt in particular is a wonderfully rich, complex, and diverse culture. I wish Eltahawy had tried to root out the causes with an eye toward improvement. But she seems to think (from all I've read by her) that once the revolution is truly complete, women will have a better life. I don't think it's that simple. Until most Egyptians can put food on their tables and have some degree of economic self-determination, I think women will continue to suffer, and I don't think the Islamist parties that have swept in are focusing enough on economic issues. They are obsessed, at least for now, with moral issues and Israel. Middle and upper class women in Egypt have a good degree of autonomy in Egypt right now and in many ways live lives very similar to ours. Money matters. A lot.

Egypt has done well in providing free college educations to anyone, regardless of gender, if they test well (public education is similar to European tracked education). Under Mubarak, there were some advances for women regarding personal status laws. FGM was banned (albeit still widely practiced, Muslims and Christians alike). Divorce was made easier for Muslim women (although Christian women still can't divorce). Child custody laws are very favorable for women, who get physical custody of the kids up until at least age 13. Which may not sound great but it's better than many other Islamic countries. The minimum age for marriage is 18 (for now at least). Again, it's nowhere near perfect, but there was some progress. Egypt is in dire need of economic reform and growth, and I think if this ever happens, you will find civil rights follow. We'll see.

Mostly I object to her blanket characterization of Arab men, because while it's only anecdotal, the men in my Egyptian family don't hate women at all, and historically have treated women very lovingly. Daughters and wives and mothers. And polite to coworkers and friends and strangers. Most women in my family are doctors, pharmacists, and fairly high ranking government officials. Their lives in Cairo are very similar to how I live here. I'd rather people work toward improving problems rather than denigrating an entire culture and gender.

The problem I have with the huffington post piece is its cultural relativism. There's a real issue that's substantially impacting women in the Muslim world. Things are bad in the Christian world, a point the article makes, but there's a sytemic issue in the Muslim world that's adversely affecting women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:That article's been driving me nuts since it came out. It's so reflective of her inherent personal rage, it really obscures the real problem, and worse, offers no solution. There have been many rebuttal essays. This one resonates most with me.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mobileweb/monica-l-marks/do-arabs-really-hate-wome_b_1453147.html

Yes, there are systemic problems and cultural standards that treat women as second class citizens in many circumstances. There is no doubt about it. But the idea that Arab men in general are carrying around something as intense as blanket hatred for women is simply untrue. No culture is that simplistic and I think it's dangerous to think of it that way. Egypt in particular is a wonderfully rich, complex, and diverse culture. I wish Eltahawy had tried to root out the causes with an eye toward improvement. But she seems to think (from all I've read by her) that once the revolution is truly complete, women will have a better life. I don't think it's that simple. Until most Egyptians can put food on their tables and have some degree of economic self-determination, I think women will continue to suffer, and I don't think the Islamist parties that have swept in are focusing enough on economic issues. They are obsessed, at least for now, with moral issues and Israel. Middle and upper class women in Egypt have a good degree of autonomy in Egypt right now and in many ways live lives very similar to ours. Money matters. A lot.

Egypt has done well in providing free college educations to anyone, regardless of gender, if they test well (public education is similar to European tracked education). Under Mubarak, there were some advances for women regarding personal status laws. FGM was banned (albeit still widely practiced, Muslims and Christians alike). Divorce was made easier for Muslim women (although Christian women still can't divorce). Child custody laws are very favorable for women, who get physical custody of the kids up until at least age 13. Which may not sound great but it's better than many other Islamic countries. The minimum age for marriage is 18 (for now at least). Again, it's nowhere near perfect, but there was some progress. Egypt is in dire need of economic reform and growth, and I think if this ever happens, you will find civil rights follow. We'll see.

Mostly I object to her blanket characterization of Arab men, because while it's only anecdotal, the men in my Egyptian family don't hate women at all, and historically have treated women very lovingly. Daughters and wives and mothers. And polite to coworkers and friends and strangers. Most women in my family are doctors, pharmacists, and fairly high ranking government officials. Their lives in Cairo are very similar to how I live here. I'd rather people work toward improving problems rather than denigrating an entire culture and gender.

I think that there is a deep seated resentment and hatred towards women, obviously, which is codified in patriarchal religions across the world. Western religions have been little better over most of our history. On the historical scale, it is very, very recent that women in Western countries have been acknowledged as "equal" to men. And you could argue that we are still struggling to be fully recognized as free and equal. So what I am saying is that even though this author is focusing on current problems which as so pronounced in the Arab world, that doesn't mean this is an exclusively Arab problem. Poverty breeds ignorance, ignorance creates fertile ground for religious extremism, religious extremism promotes and us-vs-them mentality, whether it's Islam vs. Judeo/Christians or males vs. femals or East vs. West.

I would agree with you that equality seems to be a luxury of wealthy nations. Not saying that's how it SHOULD be but apparently that is how it is.

I think might makes right. Males are generally bigger and stronger and in a pinch, meaner. So they can dominate in the home and on the street. Women have babies. As long as our baby is basically hostage to the people around us - we will do what we have to do to get along, keep the peace, and keep our child safe if we can. And that often means going along with patriarchal practices. When there's only so much to go around, brutality is the consequence.

Men subjugate women and religion provides them with a justification. Islam as it is currently practiced in many places is a big part of the problem. Not saying that's inherent to pure Islam, that's just how it's been twisted in some places. Just like some Christian sects make all kinds of rules and regs that Jesus didn't provide.

I think that misogyny is a universal problem. Whether you are talking about Rush Limbaugh and sluts and whores, or the Catholic Church refusing to ordain women, or having to wear a burqua in public. They are all manifestations of the same thing. Our culture may not currently tolerate the burqua but IMHO we are tolerating many other assaults on women's rights. Our culture may be more subtle about it now but it's still there.

[Anonymous]

PS, and I find it very telling that the assault on women's rights 2012 is happening now, at (what we hope is the tail) end of the "mancession". Even though the political fall out against republicans has been very negative. They still just can't stop themselves from passing all these ridiculous laws. Going after our reproductive rights has a direct connection to our economic power. How many children we have, how far apart we space them, whether we have children at all, all choices that have a huge impact on our ability to work - to compete with men in the workplace - and our economic power.

If women would just stop working there'd be plenty of jobs for the men. Right?

[Anonymous]

Without Mubarak, things will get much worse for women and Christians in Egypt, and for Israel. Obama is a schmuck for telling him to go. I'm scratching my head at who benefits here - extremist muslims who hate women, the US, and Christians?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Without Mubarak, things will get much worse for women and Christians in Egypt, and for Israel. Obama is a schmuck for telling him to go. I'm scratching my head at who benefits here - extremist muslims who hate women, the US, and Christians?

23:08 again. I don't think Obama or the US had any significant control over Mubarak's being forced to step down. Egypt was on fire in a way I've never seen in my life, and the regime could have gone the way of Libya or Syria, but it didn't, thank God. I've got many family members over there, including young neices and nephews, and I want them to have a shot at a decent life.

To me, it's all about power -- who has it, who retains it, who wants it. The military will do everything it can to protect its control over its 40% share in the economy. The Islamists are gaining power and trying to get more. And yes, while I tried to keep an open mind about them, this is my greatest personal bias. They aren't talking about the economy at all. They care more about reversing the ban on FGM, reducing the age of marriage for women to 9 or 14, depending on who's talking, banning alcohol and bikinis (huge tourism fail), prohibiting women from divorcing, and ensuring men get first crack at all jobs (if there's something left over, then women can have it). And yes, it's the same with the Christians, who have not historically fared well there, but stand to fare much worse.

Again, to me it's more about power. The men who have a good measure of power over their own lives and fate are generally not hateful toward women (or Christians or Jews for that matter). It's the ones who feel threatened or who are manipulating others to aquire power who are causing most of the trouble. And it's not just men, by the way. There are many women, including women of influence, who perpetuate these stereotypes and fight to pass laws or subjugate women. There is a female MP who thinks FGM is a "beauty enhancement" and should be allowed.

[Anonymous]

And it's not just men, by the way. There are many women, including women of influence, who perpetuate these stereotypes and fight to pass laws or subjugate women. There is a female MP who thinks FGM is a "beauty enhancement" and should be allowed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, patriarchal dominance could not be maintained if ALL women refused to accept it. But I think it's like Stockholm Syndrome. From the cradle we are raised to internalize the status quo. It's hard to break through, heck it's hard to even perceive, some of the conditioning we've received.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And it's not just men, by the way. There are many women, including women of influence, who perpetuate these stereotypes and fight to pass laws or subjugate women. There is a female MP who thinks FGM is a "beauty enhancement" and should be allowed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, patriarchal dominance could not be maintained if ALL women refused to accept it. But I think it's like Stockholm Syndrome. From the cradle we are raised to internalize the status quo. It's hard to break through, heck it's hard to even perceive, some of the conditioning we've received.

Wow, that's an interesting perspective. I don't think I agree with it, but I think it raises some valid points.

[Anonymous]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-chemaly/message-to-girls-about-re_b_1518849.html#s327348&title=Dr_Ingrid_Mattson

[Anonymous]

I thought this was going to be about the Tea Party.

[Anonymous]

Go Egypt!