As schools near $100K/year when will that affect the pool of students?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It already is. In theory, we could "afford" to send our kids anywhere. In practice, DC1 chose to stay instate (where we get a tuition break on top of lower tuition anyway, due to one parent's job). Total for DC1 for 4 years should be around $100K, which is about what it was for me to go to an expensive private college back in the early 90's.

It's truly hard to imagine how it would be "worth" $300K more for an undergraduate education. We're already seeing more and more great students choosing public colleges and universities, and that helps to make those schools better. I think the tipping point will eventually be that if costs of private keep rising, the best students will be choosing public, and then the whole system will implode.

There will always be wealthy smart students who can afford the elite schools. Just look at the elite HS in NYC where people pay $50K+/year. Same for all the elite boarding schools in the Northeast. People paying $75 k+ for a year of HS will have the money for college

Yes, there are rich people with smart kids, but my point is, if the smart but less rich kids are all choosing public universities, eventually, the "name brand" private colleges will be diluted with rich but less smart kids, and then what advantage will that name have? I mean, I don't see this happening soon, but as another PP pointed out, back in our day, UMD was an easy, guaranteed admit, and now it's coveted. Plus, Gen Z is just a lot smarter about not leaving college in debt.

You just described Harvard/Yale/Princeton for 300 years of their existence. They will be fine educating smart (but not the smartest) rich kids

Sorry to burst your bubble, but HYP offer the most generous financial aid of any elite private schools. If your kid can get in, they can go because HYP will make it happen. Poor and middle class kids go to HYP because HYP gives them money. Not the other elite private schools. None is so generous with FA.

Donut hole families (DMV) will get zero need based aid at HYP. Trust me on that. They have to be making less than $150k.

We’re at $180K annual income, with $50,000 in college savings and no other non-retirement assets. My son didn’t get into Princeton, but the calculator gave us an EFC of $18,000, and Harvard was at about $30,000.

Income doesn't tell the entire story, as others note. And $180K is really not that much above $150K.

I think you are misinterpreting what PP saying…at Princeton they would be receiving around $67,000 in need-based aid at $180k of HHI, and only have to pay $18,000 per year.

The folks who keep yelling “donut hole” either are complaining about need aware schools like a Tulane or make in excess of $300k per year (which most would not say is donut hole).

That's Princeton. They very rich schools can afford to be very generous. Once you get outside of those schools, they start getting a lot less generous. For in state schools, PP would probably be full pay or close to full pay even though W&M has a 40+ coa

Yep. NYU, Cornell, USC, Tulane and several other schools aren’t very generous imo.

Most of them aren't worth the money anyway vs an in-state school so who cares?

Many elite privates are far cheaper than “an instate school” for low-income/lower middle class kids.

What's your point? If you're so jealous of LMC parents, become one.

Or, if you lived like a LMC person for a decade, you'd save up more than enough to avoid your dreaded "donut hole" fate.

+1

Most complaining would never actually want to swap places with the LMC or lower family for the last 18 years, of course not. They just want the "perks" they envision from being one

Yup. And it's just so funny because these $150k-300k families could save up for even the steepest tuitions fairly quickly through the magic of living like they made $80k/yr, as many MANY DC area families do. But they won't, so they whine.

The only way a family is living like they make 80k a year in DC is if they either have a paid off place to live or are fine with a very dangerous neighborhood. An 80k salary is 300k house (less for a condo with an HOA). In DC that means dangerous neighborhood.

You can get lower cost houses in Silver Spring, Wheaton and other parts of MoCo. That's what we did. Our neighborhood is fine. Our house sucks and is very small but I'd rather live in a small house and pay for college. However, we are planning for state school as reality is we will not get help and that's what we can afford.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid attends JMU. Total COA for all four years combined will be a hair over $100,000.

Smart move.

Even 75k a year is a waste of money in most cases. Just invest the money instead and your kid is almost guaranteed to be a millionaire by 35. People obsessed with education have a very narrow view and simply force their kids down the same path they went down.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:It already is. In theory, we could "afford" to send our kids anywhere. In practice, DC1 chose to stay instate (where we get a tuition break on top of lower tuition anyway, due to one parent's job). Total for DC1 for 4 years should be around $100K, which is about what it was for me to go to an expensive private college back in the early 90's.

It's truly hard to imagine how it would be "worth" $300K more for an undergraduate education. We're already seeing more and more great students choosing public colleges and universities, and that helps to make those schools better. I think the tipping point will eventually be that if costs of private keep rising, the best students will be choosing public, and then the whole system will implode.

There will always be wealthy smart students who can afford the elite schools. Just look at the elite HS in NYC where people pay $50K+/year. Same for all the elite boarding schools in the Northeast. People paying $75 k+ for a year of HS will have the money for college

Yes, there are rich people with smart kids, but my point is, if the smart but less rich kids are all choosing public universities, eventually, the "name brand" private colleges will be diluted with rich but less smart kids, and then what advantage will that name have? I mean, I don't see this happening soon, but as another PP pointed out, back in our day, UMD was an easy, guaranteed admit, and now it's coveted. Plus, Gen Z is just a lot smarter about not leaving college in debt.

You just described Harvard/Yale/Princeton for 300 years of their existence. They will be fine educating smart (but not the smartest) rich kids

Sorry to burst your bubble, but HYP offer the most generous financial aid of any elite private schools. If your kid can get in, they can go because HYP will make it happen. Poor and middle class kids go to HYP because HYP gives them money. Not the other elite private schools. None is so generous with FA.

Donut hole families (DMV) will get zero need based aid at HYP. Trust me on that. They have to be making less than $150k.

We’re at $180K annual income, with $50,000 in college savings and no other non-retirement assets. My son didn’t get into Princeton, but the calculator gave us an EFC of $18,000, and Harvard was at about $30,000.

Income doesn't tell the entire story, as others note. And $180K is really not that much above $150K.

I think you are misinterpreting what PP saying…at Princeton they would be receiving around $67,000 in need-based aid at $180k of HHI, and only have to pay $18,000 per year.

The folks who keep yelling “donut hole” either are complaining about need aware schools like a Tulane or make in excess of $300k per year (which most would not say is donut hole).

That's Princeton. They very rich schools can afford to be very generous. Once you get outside of those schools, they start getting a lot less generous. For in state schools, PP would probably be full pay or close to full pay even though W&M has a 40+ coa

Yep. NYU, Cornell, USC, Tulane and several other schools aren’t very generous imo.

Most of them aren't worth the money anyway vs an in-state school so who cares?

Many elite privates are far cheaper than “an instate school” for low-income/lower middle class kids.

What's your point? If you're so jealous of LMC parents, become one.

Or, if you lived like a LMC person for a decade, you'd save up more than enough to avoid your dreaded "donut hole" fate.

+1

Most complaining would never actually want to swap places with the LMC or lower family for the last 18 years, of course not. They just want the "perks" they envision from being one

Yup. And it's just so funny because these $150k-300k families could save up for even the steepest tuitions fairly quickly through the magic of living like they made $80k/yr, as many MANY DC area families do. But they won't, so they whine.

The only way a family is living like they make 80k a year in DC is if they either have a paid off place to live or are fine with a very dangerous neighborhood. An 80k salary is 300k house (less for a condo with an HOA). In DC that means dangerous neighborhood.

So rent, just like rest of us poors.

- living on around $100K in DC with two kids

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I honestly don't think so it will ever affect the quality of pool of students. Like many have said the demographics at these expensive schools will change but quality would not.

So more international, celebrity & rich kids. specially the ones that want to return back to their home country to join dad's business or son/daughters of Indian actors for example. They will subsidize the fees for very smart kids who qualify for need based aid.

Then there will be families who have sacrificed many many years on vacations, and quality of life to pay for kids education (read lots of MC/UMC families especially Asian immigrants who value education highly)

And then finally, families who go under massive debt to pay for the kids education.

I think what would change, are the employers and grad school admissions POV- kids in mid ranked school will not be penalized. There is growing awareness and acceptance that top kids don't always end up at top ranked schools because of many factors 1) cost and 2) Diversity 3) Competitive majors 4) Just the overall lottery. That doesn't mean these kids are less capable than Ivy league kids

You are living in dream land.

All of these “problems” existed when I was applying to schools in 2002 and employers didn’t care then. They won’t care about your kids either. You’re just surprised because you’re downwardly mobile.

+1 As long as hiring managers care, then the school name matters.

There have always been “donut hole” families. DCUMers are just surprised because their parents weren’t.

The fact is most hiring managers do NOT care. It's only a few areas that really matter (NYC finance and PE). And after the first job, nobody cares. GMU sends kids to FAANG, just like Harvard, Yale, and VaTEch do. A kid with the drive to get into a T20 will excel at any school and likely come out at the top at a non-elite/t20 school and means they will easily be hired by a good company. The notion that it really matters where you attend undergrad is a bit overblown on DCUM. Just look around at your place of employment---how many people do you work with that are T20 grads? Look at the Exec Team, how many are T20 undergrads? Most likely not that many. It's what you do at school and on the job that matters.

I agree. Also, people in the DMV area forget that the school names that are big here are NOT big outside of this area. VT doesn't have the same name recognition as UCLA. In fact, my ILs, who live in AZ, thought that Virginia Tech was a technical trade school and asked what trade my DS was going into when they saw his acceptance announcement. JMU? W&M? W&L? No one who isn't from VA knows those schools or why getting into them is so difficult.

I started my career in recruiting and hiring in CA (NorCal area). I hired just as many developers from MIT, Stanford, and UC-Berkeley as I did from U of DE, Davenport Univ., and Bloomsburg Univ.

Utterly and completely false. Provincial and ignorant, much?

If you think PP is wrong I think it’s you who is provincial. Recruiters outside the mid-Atlantic think these are on par with directional schools in other states. Which actually, I suppose they are.

+1. I’m from the West coast originally. No one there cares about East coast colleges except the Ivy League.

No one cares about West Coast schools outside of UC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal Tech and maybe UW. The lesson is outside of the top schools everything is regional and you should go to school where you want to live

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It already is. In theory, we could "afford" to send our kids anywhere. In practice, DC1 chose to stay instate (where we get a tuition break on top of lower tuition anyway, due to one parent's job). Total for DC1 for 4 years should be around $100K, which is about what it was for me to go to an expensive private college back in the early 90's.

It's truly hard to imagine how it would be "worth" $300K more for an undergraduate education. We're already seeing more and more great students choosing public colleges and universities, and that helps to make those schools better. I think the tipping point will eventually be that if costs of private keep rising, the best students will be choosing public, and then the whole system will implode.

There will always be wealthy smart students who can afford the elite schools. Just look at the elite HS in NYC where people pay $50K+/year. Same for all the elite boarding schools in the Northeast. People paying $75 k+ for a year of HS will have the money for college

Yes, there are rich people with smart kids, but my point is, if the smart but less rich kids are all choosing public universities, eventually, the "name brand" private colleges will be diluted with rich but less smart kids, and then what advantage will that name have? I mean, I don't see this happening soon, but as another PP pointed out, back in our day, UMD was an easy, guaranteed admit, and now it's coveted. Plus, Gen Z is just a lot smarter about not leaving college in debt.

You just described Harvard/Yale/Princeton for 300 years of their existence. They will be fine educating smart (but not the smartest) rich kids

Sorry to burst your bubble, but HYP offer the most generous financial aid of any elite private schools. If your kid can get in, they can go because HYP will make it happen. Poor and middle class kids go to HYP because HYP gives them money. Not the other elite private schools. None is so generous with FA.

Donut hole families (DMV) will get zero need based aid at HYP. Trust me on that. They have to be making less than $150k.

We’re at $180K annual income, with $50,000 in college savings and no other non-retirement assets. My son didn’t get into Princeton, but the calculator gave us an EFC of $18,000, and Harvard was at about $30,000.

Income doesn't tell the entire story, as others note. And $180K is really not that much above $150K.

I think you are misinterpreting what PP saying…at Princeton they would be receiving around $67,000 in need-based aid at $180k of HHI, and only have to pay $18,000 per year.

The folks who keep yelling “donut hole” either are complaining about need aware schools like a Tulane or make in excess of $300k per year (which most would not say is donut hole).

That's Princeton. They very rich schools can afford to be very generous. Once you get outside of those schools, they start getting a lot less generous. For in state schools, PP would probably be full pay or close to full pay even though W&M has a 40+ coa

Yep. NYU, Cornell, USC, Tulane and several other schools aren’t very generous imo.

Most of them aren't worth the money anyway vs an in-state school so who cares?

Many elite privates are far cheaper than “an instate school” for low-income/lower middle class kids.

What's your point? If you're so jealous of LMC parents, become one.

Or, if you lived like a LMC person for a decade, you'd save up more than enough to avoid your dreaded "donut hole" fate.

+1

Most complaining would never actually want to swap places with the LMC or lower family for the last 18 years, of course not. They just want the "perks" they envision from being one

Yup. And it's just so funny because these $150k-300k families could save up for even the steepest tuitions fairly quickly through the magic of living like they made $80k/yr, as many MANY DC area families do. But they won't, so they whine.

The only way a family is living like they make 80k a year in DC is if they either have a paid off place to live or are fine with a very dangerous neighborhood. An 80k salary is 300k house (less for a condo with an HOA). In DC that means dangerous neighborhood.

So rent, just like rest of us poors.

- living on around $100K in DC with two kids

Rent ends up costing more than a mortgage

[Anonymous]

I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

Most people go to instate publics. A decent amount of OOS public Us & privates give good merit aid. Some kids commute to NVCC or MC for the first 2 years and then either commute to a local 4-year or go away to one. There’s the option of the kid taking out federal loans in their own name, which amount to a total of up to $27k by college graduation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

State college and lifestyle choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

A lot of people actually serve their country in the military and pay for college with the GI bill. The national guard is also a good option and your odds of a deployment are quite low.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

A lot of people actually serve their country in the military and pay for college with the GI bill. The national guard is also a good option and your odds of a deployment are quite low.

Last year, military added a 2 year option where you’re full in + 2 years of mild weekend commitments/trainings. Still gets you full GI bill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

My child went to a top instate flagship (not in the DMV) and graduated in 3 years due to AP credits, high school dual enrollment & taking 21 credits one semester. There are pros & cons to that, but it saved an entire year of college costs. *Would only recommend that if kid has already had internship(s), research experience and/or other necessary experience to get into their field of choice by the end of year #3.*

Another option is to become a resident assistant (RA) starting sophomore year. It’s competitive at some schools, but often comes with free housing.

[Anonymous]

Most of the families we know with seniors this year chose the school that gave them the most money. Some friends had disappointed kids, but that's the reality.

Two families we know made the choice to pay full price at the DC's first choice (private) university. One of those students is finishing up her first year and the parents are buckling under the weight of tuition plus surprise expenses along the way.

[Anonymous]

Princeton and others give a lot of aid to families making under 150-200k and have “typical assets”. What are typical assets? Usually btw 200-250k. That’s a low number if you’re in your late 50s. Not all of us have ways to hide every dollar in retirement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly have no idea how anyone can afford college these days. We have saved up enough for about 2 years of an instate school, and will hopefully be able to scrape up the rest, but we can't even consider private. It's just absurd.

A lot of people actually serve their country in the military and pay for college with the GI bill. The national guard is also a good option and your odds of a deployment are quite low.

Have you done this? It's not very easy to be active duty enlisted and get your education at the same time. You have zero say in where you go and there are deployments even if it's not to war zones. Clearly you don't know much about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I honestly don't think so it will ever affect the quality of pool of students. Like many have said the demographics at these expensive schools will change but quality would not.

So more international, celebrity & rich kids. specially the ones that want to return back to their home country to join dad's business or son/daughters of Indian actors for example. They will subsidize the fees for very smart kids who qualify for need based aid.

Then there will be families who have sacrificed many many years on vacations, and quality of life to pay for kids education (read lots of MC/UMC families especially Asian immigrants who value education highly)

And then finally, families who go under massive debt to pay for the kids education.

I think what would change, are the employers and grad school admissions POV- kids in mid ranked school will not be penalized. There is growing awareness and acceptance that top kids don't always end up at top ranked schools because of many factors 1) cost and 2) Diversity 3) Competitive majors 4) Just the overall lottery. That doesn't mean these kids are less capable than Ivy league kids

You are living in dream land.

All of these “problems” existed when I was applying to schools in 2002 and employers didn’t care then. They won’t care about your kids either. You’re just surprised because you’re downwardly mobile.

+1 As long as hiring managers care, then the school name matters.

There have always been “donut hole” families. DCUMers are just surprised because their parents weren’t.

The fact is most hiring managers do NOT care. It's only a few areas that really matter (NYC finance and PE). And after the first job, nobody cares. GMU sends kids to FAANG, just like Harvard, Yale, and VaTEch do. A kid with the drive to get into a T20 will excel at any school and likely come out at the top at a non-elite/t20 school and means they will easily be hired by a good company. The notion that it really matters where you attend undergrad is a bit overblown on DCUM. Just look around at your place of employment---how many people do you work with that are T20 grads? Look at the Exec Team, how many are T20 undergrads? Most likely not that many. It's what you do at school and on the job that matters.

I agree. Also, people in the DMV area forget that the school names that are big here are NOT big outside of this area. VT doesn't have the same name recognition as UCLA. In fact, my ILs, who live in AZ, thought that Virginia Tech was a technical trade school and asked what trade my DS was going into when they saw his acceptance announcement. JMU? W&M? W&L? No one who isn't from VA knows those schools or why getting into them is so difficult.

I started my career in recruiting and hiring in CA (NorCal area). I hired just as many developers from MIT, Stanford, and UC-Berkeley as I did from U of DE, Davenport Univ., and Bloomsburg Univ.

Utterly and completely false. Provincial and ignorant, much?

If you think PP is wrong I think it’s you who is provincial. Recruiters outside the mid-Atlantic think these are on par with directional schools in other states. Which actually, I suppose they are.

+1. I’m from the West coast originally. No one there cares about East coast colleges except the Ivy League.

No one cares about West Coast schools outside of UC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal Tech and maybe UW. The lesson is outside of the top schools everything is regional and you should go to school where you want to live