Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

Of all the things on your college application, the item least susceptible to wealth and privilege is your standardized test score.

They’re advocating for the elite, not for standardized exams.

But they say they want to reinstate standardized tests.

Who is your “they.” I don’t think you’re actually keeping up with the thread and it’s causing useless arguments.

The professors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all those saying "don't bring back the SAT, just fix the education system!" - what specific reforms do you have in mind, and what kind of time frame are we talking? Because the UC system is bleeding reputation day by day by day... Tick tick.

The UC system is fine. I’m serious. Most posters here have no connection to California and obsess over prestige when it comes to the UC system. What they don’t realize is for decades the attrition was multiples of what it is now. Almost every student who entered the UC leaves with a degree.

Now, California has so many issues in its k-12 system that it find a perfect solution may well take a few decades. For one, we as a country messed up by making tracking illegal. But the quickest reform that could be made and financially supported (40% of the state budget is education btw) is holding students back. But to do that, we need standards in the first place. The integrated math curriculum needs to be eliminated. The UC system should develop a standardized exam in line with whatever new California standards are created. Invest more in a rural teachers program. Every school in the state should have calculus and other liberal arts advanced courses. Cities with schools that fail to deliver so should be threatened and show persistent effort in hiring. Give less power to parents and more power to teachers in terms of behavior. Evaluate grading with standardized testing performance and evaluate teachers with strong standard deviation issues. Raise the hell out of the bar for minimum “meets grade” and advanced achievement on state exams. Institute a minimum state exam score to apply to the UC system.

Graduation rates are up at UCs despite reading and math levels at the 8th grade level? That says something about the value of those degrees.

Academic tracking isn't illegal. Why would you say that?

Alabama started holding students back and standards improved and the number of held back students shrank to 1-2%

Rural education is important, yes, but inner city education is a shambles.

Tracking is essentially illegal. You get hit with a quick civil rights act case. Of course, with Trump’s squad decimating the CRA, districts may feel more emboldened.

DP

WTF are you talking about?

I would guess the majority of districts have some form of tracking.

Tracking becomes illegal if it racially segregates a school. People here are either so uninformed they shouldn’t be speaking on this subject or willingly disingenuous

Tracking definitely exists and it definitely creates segregation. It's literally everywhere.

Tracking absolutely can become legally vulnerable when it produces persistent racial segregation without strong educational justification. Courts have been dealing with this for decades. Hobson v. Hansen struck down tracking that disproportionately funneled Black students into lower tracks, and McNeal v. Tate County School District held that districts with segregation histories cannot maintain racially identifiable tracks unless they’re clearly unrelated to past discrimination. People Who Care v. Rockford Board of Education also challenged unequal access tied to tracking practices. So no, “tracking exists everywhere” is not some legal defense. A lot of districts operate systems that would face serious scrutiny if fully litigated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Citation?

Oh wait. You’re full of crap.

What would you accept as proof that asians generally believe that a lot of academic ability is a matter of effort and sacrifice. I think the notion that americans think academic ability is inborn and color coded is pretty obvious on its face.

Why not post a source? It takes a little time, gets everyone on track, validates your point, and as you say “is pretty obvious.” Racial disparities in education is highly studied.

I'm asian, I can tell you what we believe but if that's not good enough, here is a peer reviewed paper saying that the asian white achievement gap is actually mostly an effort gap.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Here is an article that refers to the above paper and adds some useful commentary

https://www.discovermagazine.com/asian-americans-are-high-achievers-because-they-work-harder-11260

The religion of education is a large driver of the population collapse in places like Korea and japan.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The SAT is a racist test. There is no reason to go back to it.

What makes them racist?

Anything where the participants (or participants who excel in it) do not represent the US demographics may be called racist by a segment of our society.

More dumb ass RWNJ fiction.

This is actually the definition of equity.

equality of outcome and anything that prevents that is racist.

Did you pull that out of the absurd RWNJ dictionary?

Like I said, more dumb ass RWNJ fiction.

And you wonder why you lose elections to guys like trump. How embarassing.

[Anonymous]

Hobson would not survive an appeal. The DC Education Board voted against appealing it because of that very reason.

Tracking if done in a non-discriminatory manner is perfectly constitutional. Scotus has and will continue to winnow down disparate impact jurisprudence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Citation?

Oh wait. You’re full of crap.

What would you accept as proof that asians generally believe that a lot of academic ability is a matter of effort and sacrifice. I think the notion that americans think academic ability is inborn and color coded is pretty obvious on its face.

"academic ability is inborn"? WTF?

Like I said, you're full of crap.

If you think academic ability is malleable then why don't you think black people can do well on standardized tests, the sort used all over the world, including majority black countries?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

If you only admit students with an SAT math score of 700+ for STEM majors at UCLA/Berkeley, then you will have a well-prepared undergraduate class, regarld of HS teaching quality.

I do think most with low SAT math scores ended up not doing STEM, as they couldn’t pass the “weed out” prerequisites. Many of those kids might have to change their intended majors quite a few times as they move down the list, shattering their confidence in the meanwhile.

Most people with low sat scores aren’t interested in a stem major. The assumption everyone wants to do stem is plaguing this thread. Not everyone needs differential equations; I’d even argue most don’t

The issue is not differential equations or even just elementary calculus. But a subset of these kids can’t even do very basic algebra. The SAT math has always been a bit of a job, even in my generation.

Then your generation took the SAT after 1995

Nope, earlier than that. Let’s be honest, those who have an understanding of the very basic algebra and a bit of elementary geometry pretty much finish the damn thing within 50% of the allotted time limit.

Were you one of the 20 or so kids that got a perfect score the year you took it?

I got a 1520 and there were less than 1000 kids that got a 1520 or higher that year.

Prior to 1995 the SATs had long thin tails.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

Of all the things on your college application, the item least susceptible to wealth and privilege is your standardized test score.

They’re advocating for the elite, not for standardized exams.

But they say they want to reinstate standardized tests.

Who is your “they.” I don’t think you’re actually keeping up with the thread and it’s causing useless arguments.

DP. The professors. They can’t teach to such a broad band of skill levels. Same happened at MIT. Profs said “we are quitting”. MIT dropped test optional … I think two years ago. Since then all of the elite schools have been quietly dropping it.

I was talking to PP, not about these professors.

I am the original PP and i was talking about the professors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

Of all the things on your college application, the item least susceptible to wealth and privilege is your standardized test score.

They’re advocating for the elite, not for standardized exams.

But they say they want to reinstate standardized tests.

Who is your “they.” I don’t think you’re actually keeping up with the thread and it’s causing useless arguments.

DP. The professors. They can’t teach to such a broad band of skill levels. Same happened at MIT. Profs said “we are quitting”. MIT dropped test optional … I think two years ago. Since then all of the elite schools have been quietly dropping it.

I was talking to PP, not about these professors.

I am the original PP and i was talking about the professors

I am SPARTACUS

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Nigerian immigrants also value education a lot and tend to do really well academically.

Immigrants generally tend to believe in education. Nigeria specifically, has developed a culture that values education and this is the result.

Name a competitive internationally recognized Nigerian institution?

What does that mean and what does that have to do with anything?

They literally just started democracy a generation ago.

Name a competitive internationally recognized Nigerian institution
You know what all of those words mean. Name one. Stop being a coward.

That's word salad. Give me an example of a competitive internationally recognized Swedish institution
or any white country. What does your word salad mean?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hobson would not survive an appeal. The DC Education Board voted against appealing it because of that very reason.

Tracking if done in a non-discriminatory manner is perfectly constitutional. Scotus has and will continue to winnow down disparate impact jurisprudence.

This message is 100% AI.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Citation?

Oh wait. You’re full of crap.

What would you accept as proof that asians generally believe that a lot of academic ability is a matter of effort and sacrifice. I think the notion that americans think academic ability is inborn and color coded is pretty obvious on its face.

Why not post a source? It takes a little time, gets everyone on track, validates your point, and as you say “is pretty obvious.” Racial disparities in education is highly studied.

I'm asian, I can tell you what we believe but if that's not good enough, here is a peer reviewed paper saying that the asian white achievement gap is actually mostly an effort gap.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1406402111

Here is an article that refers to the above paper and adds some useful commentary

https://www.discovermagazine.com/asian-americans-are-high-achievers-because-they-work-harder-11260

The religion of education is a large driver of the population collapse in places like Korea and japan.

I wasn't combatting you. I agree with you and want this incessant arguing to have a final nail in the coffin.

[Anonymous]

You know so what. UCs are huge schools. There is room for the top students and bottom students.

CA is unique in that has cluster of truly remarkable people with extremely high intelligence and some clusters with very little intelligence. CA has been siphoning off top STEM talent from other states and countries for 25 years. Their kids are now going to college.

VA has lots of highly educated mid to meh intelligence people in NOVA, a bunch of meh people elsewhere, The highly intelligent seem to gravitate toward Montgomery County but they are paired with low performers as well. Depending on source region and major, you have true geniuses in the UCs but you also have a lower bottom. UVA is smart kids but no one is going on to do brilliant things. They are just preppy bubble dwellers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You know so what. UCs are huge schools. There is room for the top students and bottom students.

CA is unique in that has cluster of truly remarkable people with extremely high intelligence and some clusters with very little intelligence. CA has been siphoning off top STEM talent from other states and countries for 25 years. Their kids are now going to college.

VA has lots of highly educated mid to meh intelligence people in NOVA, a bunch of meh people elsewhere, The highly intelligent seem to gravitate toward Montgomery County but they are paired with low performers as well. Depending on source region and major, you have true geniuses in the UCs but you also have a lower bottom. UVA is smart kids but no one is going on to do brilliant things. They are just preppy bubble dwellers.

Oh my.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all those saying "don't bring back the SAT, just fix the education system!" - what specific reforms do you have in mind, and what kind of time frame are we talking? Because the UC system is bleeding reputation day by day by day... Tick tick.

The UC system is fine. I’m serious. Most posters here have no connection to California and obsess over prestige when it comes to the UC system. What they don’t realize is for decades the attrition was multiples of what it is now. Almost every student who entered the UC leaves with a degree.

Now, California has so many issues in its k-12 system that it find a perfect solution may well take a few decades. For one, we as a country messed up by making tracking illegal. But the quickest reform that could be made and financially supported (40% of the state budget is education btw) is holding students back. But to do that, we need standards in the first place. The integrated math curriculum needs to be eliminated. The UC system should develop a standardized exam in line with whatever new California standards are created. Invest more in a rural teachers program. Every school in the state should have calculus and other liberal arts advanced courses. Cities with schools that fail to deliver so should be threatened and show persistent effort in hiring. Give less power to parents and more power to teachers in terms of behavior. Evaluate grading with standardized testing performance and evaluate teachers with strong standard deviation issues. Raise the hell out of the bar for minimum “meets grade” and advanced achievement on state exams. Institute a minimum state exam score to apply to the UC system.

Graduation rates are up at UCs despite reading and math levels at the 8th grade level? That says something about the value of those degrees.

Academic tracking isn't illegal. Why would you say that?

Alabama started holding students back and standards improved and the number of held back students shrank to 1-2%

Rural education is important, yes, but inner city education is a shambles.

Tracking is essentially illegal. You get hit with a quick civil rights act case. Of course, with Trump’s squad decimating the CRA, districts may feel more emboldened.

DP

WTF are you talking about?

I would guess the majority of districts have some form of tracking.

Tracking becomes illegal if it racially segregates a school. People here are either so uninformed they shouldn’t be speaking on this subject or willingly disingenuous

Tracking definitely exists and it definitely creates segregation. It's literally everywhere.

Tracking absolutely can become legally vulnerable when it produces persistent racial segregation without strong educational justification. Courts have been dealing with this for decades. Hobson v. Hansen struck down tracking that disproportionately funneled Black students into lower tracks, and McNeal v. Tate County School District held that districts with segregation histories cannot maintain racially identifiable tracks unless they’re clearly unrelated to past discrimination. People Who Care v. Rockford Board of Education also challenged unequal access tied to tracking practices. So no, “tracking exists everywhere” is not some legal defense. A lot of districts operate systems that would face serious scrutiny if fully litigated.

The statement was "TRACKING IS ILLEGAL"
This is clearly not true.
And frankly I doubt a full litigation of modern tracking would be found illegal.

Hobson wasn't just lower tracking for black kids, it was separate and shittier schools.
McNeal was an attempt to thwart desegregation
People Who care was another case of separate facilities, the nice clean white school and the run down shitty black school.

Tracking occurs within the same building these days
And the methodology of deciding who gets high tracked versus low tracked is based on psychometrically sound standardized exams.